Meta! Rambling! Angel!

[lettered]

Over the last few months, I've been rewatching BtVS and AtS, and during S3 of BtVS some things began to make sense to me that hadn't before. This stuff has kinda been brewing for a long time, and it all just burped on the page, so it might not really be an essay or great meta or whatever. I'm going for three things, here

Comments

[spuffyduds]

Terrific. I especially like the bits about Xander, and the snow--that had never occurred to me.

Reading the Buffy and Darla bits made me think about Spike. (Well, linoleum makes me think about Spike. But this time I actually have a point.) Spike's always portrated, by Joss and fic writers, as "love's bitch"--a reed bending to whoever has his heart this season. But I'd never thought about how much Angel is the same way. Although the loss/restoring of a soul goes some way toward the becoming evil and becoming good, you make the point that in large part, he's evil for Darla and good for Buffy. So he's as reactive as Spike to his romantic interests. When you also look at Xander as a main character, and at Giles whose entire job/calling/existence is meant to be All About the Slayer--you have an entire group in which the men are, for the most part, reactive, and the women more proactive. I'd never really sorted that out before. Cool. Go you!

[spuffyduds]

Portrated? Sigh. Portrayed.

[dlgood]

I agree with you in a general sense, but I quibble with some of the semantics...

So he's as reactive as Spike to his romantic interests.

I think that Angel, like Spike, changes in ways that reflect the women that he loves. So he is reactive, just as Spike is reactive. However, he is not so malleable to the extent that Spike is. That is to say he is not as much reactive as Spike is. (Spike goes to 11!)

With Angel, I think much the reason he loves Buffy is already a reflection of how he's changed - rather than falling in love with Buffy being a promt for him to change himself.

[lettered]

I especially like the bits about Xander, and the snow--that had never occurred to me.

Yay! Because those were my two big epiphanies in my rewatching, and the things I wanted to explain my thoughts about. I felt like I had to start at the very beginning (a very good place to start) to get there though, so in the end there was a whole lot of talk talk talk!

Spike's always portrated, by Joss and fic writers, as "love's bitch"--a reed bending to whoever has his heart this season. But I'd never thought about how much Angel is the same way.

Interesting insight. I kinda agree with what dlgood says below on this: Angel doesn't change for these women. I did want to make the point that Darla has more influence than she initially seems to, as does Buffy (both of which turning points are exemplified in "Becoming"). But Darla doesn't inform everything Angel is--he exceeds her on his own, uh, "merit". And when Angel leaves Buffy, that is when he really blossoms, really becomes the self-sacrificing hero we know

[jgracio]

Would Angel?

Would Angel throw Dawn off the bridge?

[lettered]

That's the question I was asking. My knee-jerk answer is no, but Angel was willing to throw Gunn, Wesley, and possibly Spike and Illyria off a metaphorical precipice without even the assurance that their deaths would close the gates of hell. In fact, he might even have lead them into sacrifice in order to open them.

[jgracio]

Personally?

I think the only thing that would influence Angel in that decision would be his love for Buffy, knowing that he would be giving it up. He would think about it, sadly come to a decision and then chuck Dawn off the bridge, because when it's all said and done, he's given up Buffy's love again and again, and Angel is usually very much a the ends justify the means kinda guy, in a way that Buffy isn't (at least prior to S7, I never figured out if she was serious when she said she'd sacrifice Dawn, and I seriously hope not, or the Buffy I loved never came back from death).

Ok, a slightly different question then.

Would Buffy kill an innocent, to give her an opening to try and defeat some evil?

[dlgood]

With Angel, I don't think the key to sacrificing Dawn would be Buffy - I think it would be Dawn. It seemed that Dawn was willing to go off the tower in "The Gift" and because she was, I think Angel would have gone along with her. If she wasn't willing, I don't think he'd have killed her. He might well have let the world end.

As to Buffy... I think she would try desperately to avoid killing someone she thought innocent.

[lettered]

I thought the same thing too. Angel was willing to sacrifice Gunn and Wes and the rest in NFA, but he did get their permission first.

[jgracio]

If she wasn't willing, I don't think he'd have killed her.
Drogyn.

Of course, there's enough leeway to think he wouldn't, but IMO, he'd throw her off, even if she wasn't willing to die for the world. At least the final incarnation of Angel would, previous season's Angel might not.

[lettered]

I'd have to go with yes on the Buffy question. She sacrificed Angel, whom she believed to be innocent (doesn't matter whether he really was or what anyone else thought) for the good of the world. In S5, she says that things aren't so clear to her any more, and she won't sacrifice Dawn or even Ben for the good of the world. Imo this is because she's convinced there's no justice in the world and that her job is pointless and anything she does will never make the world a better place. But when she kills herself, I think she thinks it's worth it. After that, she's ready to sacrifice numerous Potentials to defeat the First.

[jgracio]

I disagree that Buffy thinks Angel is an innocent. In fact, looking at transcripts of S3, I see a lot of "Angel's better now", "He wouldn't do that now", Angel, Angel, Angel, Buffy doesn't say "It wasn't Angel, it was Angelus, totally different people" she says he wouldn't do it now, that he's better.

IMO, Buffy "knows" that Angel and Angelus are pretty much the same person. Much as she hates "killing" Angel, she knows she isn't killing a innocent.

Sacrificing someone in a fight against evil is totally different from killing them herself.

What I'm talking about is Buffy taking a Potential to the Hellmouth and killing her to "prove" to the First Evil that she was evil now, so she could gain access to the Scythe and use it to try and defeat the FE.