(no subject)
Hello, everyone. I have some concerns that I have been carrying around with me for a while that I just need to get out to someone - anyone. I am struggling a great deal with my testimony. There are a number of reasons why I am as concerned as much as I am, and I hope that I will be able to communicate what I want to say effectively enough but without going into too many details as if my experiences are what I hope they are, they would be considered too sacred to share through the medium of the internet.
I want everyone here to know that I did not come here to argue or debate. These are genuine concerns that I have and questions to which I am looking for answers. If you feel that you may be exposed to some things you may not want to be, please do not continue to read. The last thing I want to do is tear anyone's faith down. I know that I am struggling enough with my own faith, and I would never put that on anyone. I will not present any anti crap here, only what my own experiences and education have caused me to consider.
One of the biggest trials I am experiencing is the fact that I am receiving a post-secondary education. It's not that becoming educated is a trial; it's that some of the material I am learning puts a big strain on faith-related principles. Being a student of Psychology and Philosophy, I am constantly being exposed to alternative explanations for issues to which I have previously considered to have had the answers. And not only do these areas of study provide alternative, sensible explanations, but Philosophy in particular presents direct challenges to our belief system. Indeed, time and time again I have heard local church leaders discuss the potential dangers of intellectualization. Now I find myself in the midst of that danger area considering how much of it I believe or not.
There are, perhaps, two main areas in particular that present challenges to me: evolution and the monist/dualist argument. With evolution some of the implications are readily apparent; others are not. I didn't really subscribe to evolution until recently. Even now I'm not 100% sure about it, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's really the way things happened. I've talked with my branch president about it and he says that nothing in evolution contradicts the gospel. My concern with evolution rests in a few areas.
For starters, does the church have any official stance on whether or not animals have spirits? I know that it says somewhere that all things were created in the spirit before they were created on the earth. If that’s the case, what of their salvation and agency? If something has a spirit, it MUST have intelligence, for nothing can be clothed with spirit unless it first possess intelligence. If something has intelligence then it MUST have agency. If something has agency it MUST have potential for salvation and/or damnation. This in and of itself isn’t really an issue. My concern is more along the lines that if evolution did take place, then every kind of variation that has ever existed must be accounted for beforehand. That means every kind of species, every kind of creature - both great and small - must have been planned. This means that extinction must also be planned because if something is created in the spirit first, it must match its earthly body. It contradicts too much doctrine otherwise, and raises too many questions.
But that also raises questions as it is. If every species is planned, as well as extinction, does it matter if we make a concerted effort to prevent extinction? Because if it is not planned, that means that there are spiritual beings who will not get the opportunity to receive a body for whatever reason lie behind their extinction. Of course, none of these are really issues if we, God’s children, are the only ones with spirits - but that raises questions in itself.
If evolution is true and if we are the only ones with spirits, then where is the line between beings with spirits and beings without spirits? If evolution is true, then we share a common ancestor with chimps, bonobos, apes, gorillas, and if you go back even further, with all living things. As you approach the Homo sapiens, the line between who we are and who are ancestors were becomes very blurred - especially when you consider the future of evolution in its strictest sense. The thing with evolution is that it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to point to a single moment and say, “that’s where we began.” No, evolution is the development of varying traits over thousands and millions of years. When you consider that Homo sapiens and Homo erectus were once one and the same, but due to isolation became sexually incompatible, it really makes you wonder who have spirits and who do not. There are problems with both. And if evolution is, in fact the way things happened, what makes us think that it is done? Who’s to say that we don’t continue to evolve into something greater? If so, what makes us think that we can claim to be divine children of God if, in the bigger picture of things, we are only intermediates? If evolution is true, what possible reason do we have for believing that it stops with us? That’s pretty arrogant and short-sighted, is it not?
The other side is the belief that evolution is false. This is even more problematic considering the evidence in favour of it. I’m pretty much at the point where I’ve accepted evolution. When you consider that fossil evidence shows human beings with a history of about 200,000 years rather than 6000, I see a big issue. When I have a branch president who says that there’s nothing about evolution that contradicts the gospel but have a return missionary friend who read an old institute manual that said that evolution was false, I see a bigger issue. You see, the only way we can know if something is doctrine is if it has the seal of approval from the first presidency. That means that unless something has been stamped with the church logo on it, it’s not officially doctrine. If it has the logo, it’s official church doctrine. If anyone is wondering about this, feel free to reference the “Teaching, No Greater Call” manual (I was once the teacher improvement coordinator and had to teach how to teach and what to teach, so I learned first-hand what we could teach - doctrine - and how to know what doctrine was). So from what I can observe, what we have here is official church doctrine is that evolution is false, yet it’s painfully obvious how much evidence is in favour of it. If church leaders do not say that this is official doctrine, believe me, that opens up a whole can of worms concerning how to know if something is doctrine or not. If we cannot rely upon the seal of approval from the first presidency, on what do we rely? If the answer is the spirit, that’s an even bigger web.
Leaving evolution alone now, I want to address a Philosophical issue: that of the mind/spirit. I had never thought of this before until it was brought up in class and I had some time to consider what it meant in the church. To keep it with the realm of philosophy, anytime I refer to the mind, if should be assumed that I am also meaning the soul or spirit. The problem goes as follows:
Where am I? Am I my body? Am I my mind? If I am my body, that means that my body and brain only are responsible for who I am and what I do. If I am my mind then where am I? Where is my mind? Is it something of substance? Is it made of matter? If it isn’t made of matter then how can it have a location? If it isn’t made of matter than what is it made of? If it isn’t made of matter then what else could it possibly be made of? If it is made of matter, then where is it? Is it extended outside my body? Is it inside my body? If so, how can different matter occupy the same space at the same time? It can’t.
We know that we are intelligence clothed with spirit. We know that both intelligence and spirit are made of matter, albeit more refined. Be that as it may, it is still impossible for different matter to occupy the same space at the same time - and it has to be different matter otherwise the spirit and the body could not separate: they would be one and the same. There is no space within our bodies to compensate for spirit matter. Couple this problem with the problem that our brain can account for every aspect of who we are - everything from our higher mental functions to the fact that we are even conscious - and I see a huge problem: there is great difficulty in believing that we are more than our bodies, brain functions and all.
On top of this, if who we are is a result of our spirits and intelligence, then why does change in biological and chemical processes have such significant and drastic effects? Phineas gage anyone? If he was really his spirit and not his body/brain, than his accident should not have affected him as drastically and permanently as it did. Even if his story has been exaggerated, why do frontal lobotomies have such a drastic affect on personality?
So here I am, not even sure if I have a spirit anymore but still having faith because I have received answers through prayer time and time again, and I now have reason to question even that. You see, most of my life I have relied upon the Spirit to guide my actions and choices, to make decisions that were pleasing to my Father in Heaven and my Saviour. I knew and valued my covenants and tried to keep them as best I could. This is where my details become vague, but I will try my best to illustrate my problem.
I am now facing an issue where I have gone before my Heavenly Father in prayer pleading for guidance. Along with the much-needed comfort and peace, I was given specific personal revelation (revelation has always been a part of my life and decision-making). I am coming to a point where that revelation may soon be proven false - it will either be fulfilled or it won’t, there is no in between here. I am facing the real possibility that, in light of some of the points that I have addressed earlier, this whole personal revelation, relying on the Spirit is nothing more than a psychological experience. The bottom line is this: either what was told to me through prayer was by the Spirit, or it wasn’t. If this revealed truth does not come to pass - and it’s strongly looking like it will not - then it could not have been revealed through the spirit of truth. If it was not, then I am forced to call into question how I ever gained a testimony in the first place.
We know that it is through peace and calm assurance that the Book of Mormon is true. We are privileged to experience this through prayer. This peace is how I know that the church is true. It is this same peace that accompanies my personal revelations - including this latest one. This revelation must come to pass as directed by the Spirit, or I no longer have any substance for my faith. I have no reason to believe that the church is true, because the reasons for believing it to be true are no longer reliable, and I am forced to examine other possibilities.
I don’t know what to do here. The last thing I want is to give up a belief system that has governed my life. I face many who would judge me. I face the possibility of hurting my family. I face the possibility of no longer having any purpose in life, or reason for doing anything. I can’t pray because my prayers are hollow and empty. I can’t read the scriptures because my cynicism and scepticism get the best of me. I continue to attend church and to live the standards, but time is fast approaching (a couple of months away) where that revelation will either be proven true or false. If that time approaches and it is proven false, I will have lost any reason to continue believing.
I don’t know what else to do. Please help.
I want everyone here to know that I did not come here to argue or debate. These are genuine concerns that I have and questions to which I am looking for answers. If you feel that you may be exposed to some things you may not want to be, please do not continue to read. The last thing I want to do is tear anyone's faith down. I know that I am struggling enough with my own faith, and I would never put that on anyone. I will not present any anti crap here, only what my own experiences and education have caused me to consider.
One of the biggest trials I am experiencing is the fact that I am receiving a post-secondary education. It's not that becoming educated is a trial; it's that some of the material I am learning puts a big strain on faith-related principles. Being a student of Psychology and Philosophy, I am constantly being exposed to alternative explanations for issues to which I have previously considered to have had the answers. And not only do these areas of study provide alternative, sensible explanations, but Philosophy in particular presents direct challenges to our belief system. Indeed, time and time again I have heard local church leaders discuss the potential dangers of intellectualization. Now I find myself in the midst of that danger area considering how much of it I believe or not.
There are, perhaps, two main areas in particular that present challenges to me: evolution and the monist/dualist argument. With evolution some of the implications are readily apparent; others are not. I didn't really subscribe to evolution until recently. Even now I'm not 100% sure about it, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's really the way things happened. I've talked with my branch president about it and he says that nothing in evolution contradicts the gospel. My concern with evolution rests in a few areas.
For starters, does the church have any official stance on whether or not animals have spirits? I know that it says somewhere that all things were created in the spirit before they were created on the earth. If that’s the case, what of their salvation and agency? If something has a spirit, it MUST have intelligence, for nothing can be clothed with spirit unless it first possess intelligence. If something has intelligence then it MUST have agency. If something has agency it MUST have potential for salvation and/or damnation. This in and of itself isn’t really an issue. My concern is more along the lines that if evolution did take place, then every kind of variation that has ever existed must be accounted for beforehand. That means every kind of species, every kind of creature - both great and small - must have been planned. This means that extinction must also be planned because if something is created in the spirit first, it must match its earthly body. It contradicts too much doctrine otherwise, and raises too many questions.
But that also raises questions as it is. If every species is planned, as well as extinction, does it matter if we make a concerted effort to prevent extinction? Because if it is not planned, that means that there are spiritual beings who will not get the opportunity to receive a body for whatever reason lie behind their extinction. Of course, none of these are really issues if we, God’s children, are the only ones with spirits - but that raises questions in itself.
If evolution is true and if we are the only ones with spirits, then where is the line between beings with spirits and beings without spirits? If evolution is true, then we share a common ancestor with chimps, bonobos, apes, gorillas, and if you go back even further, with all living things. As you approach the Homo sapiens, the line between who we are and who are ancestors were becomes very blurred - especially when you consider the future of evolution in its strictest sense. The thing with evolution is that it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to point to a single moment and say, “that’s where we began.” No, evolution is the development of varying traits over thousands and millions of years. When you consider that Homo sapiens and Homo erectus were once one and the same, but due to isolation became sexually incompatible, it really makes you wonder who have spirits and who do not. There are problems with both. And if evolution is, in fact the way things happened, what makes us think that it is done? Who’s to say that we don’t continue to evolve into something greater? If so, what makes us think that we can claim to be divine children of God if, in the bigger picture of things, we are only intermediates? If evolution is true, what possible reason do we have for believing that it stops with us? That’s pretty arrogant and short-sighted, is it not?
The other side is the belief that evolution is false. This is even more problematic considering the evidence in favour of it. I’m pretty much at the point where I’ve accepted evolution. When you consider that fossil evidence shows human beings with a history of about 200,000 years rather than 6000, I see a big issue. When I have a branch president who says that there’s nothing about evolution that contradicts the gospel but have a return missionary friend who read an old institute manual that said that evolution was false, I see a bigger issue. You see, the only way we can know if something is doctrine is if it has the seal of approval from the first presidency. That means that unless something has been stamped with the church logo on it, it’s not officially doctrine. If it has the logo, it’s official church doctrine. If anyone is wondering about this, feel free to reference the “Teaching, No Greater Call” manual (I was once the teacher improvement coordinator and had to teach how to teach and what to teach, so I learned first-hand what we could teach - doctrine - and how to know what doctrine was). So from what I can observe, what we have here is official church doctrine is that evolution is false, yet it’s painfully obvious how much evidence is in favour of it. If church leaders do not say that this is official doctrine, believe me, that opens up a whole can of worms concerning how to know if something is doctrine or not. If we cannot rely upon the seal of approval from the first presidency, on what do we rely? If the answer is the spirit, that’s an even bigger web.
Leaving evolution alone now, I want to address a Philosophical issue: that of the mind/spirit. I had never thought of this before until it was brought up in class and I had some time to consider what it meant in the church. To keep it with the realm of philosophy, anytime I refer to the mind, if should be assumed that I am also meaning the soul or spirit. The problem goes as follows:
Where am I? Am I my body? Am I my mind? If I am my body, that means that my body and brain only are responsible for who I am and what I do. If I am my mind then where am I? Where is my mind? Is it something of substance? Is it made of matter? If it isn’t made of matter then how can it have a location? If it isn’t made of matter than what is it made of? If it isn’t made of matter then what else could it possibly be made of? If it is made of matter, then where is it? Is it extended outside my body? Is it inside my body? If so, how can different matter occupy the same space at the same time? It can’t.
We know that we are intelligence clothed with spirit. We know that both intelligence and spirit are made of matter, albeit more refined. Be that as it may, it is still impossible for different matter to occupy the same space at the same time - and it has to be different matter otherwise the spirit and the body could not separate: they would be one and the same. There is no space within our bodies to compensate for spirit matter. Couple this problem with the problem that our brain can account for every aspect of who we are - everything from our higher mental functions to the fact that we are even conscious - and I see a huge problem: there is great difficulty in believing that we are more than our bodies, brain functions and all.
On top of this, if who we are is a result of our spirits and intelligence, then why does change in biological and chemical processes have such significant and drastic effects? Phineas gage anyone? If he was really his spirit and not his body/brain, than his accident should not have affected him as drastically and permanently as it did. Even if his story has been exaggerated, why do frontal lobotomies have such a drastic affect on personality?
So here I am, not even sure if I have a spirit anymore but still having faith because I have received answers through prayer time and time again, and I now have reason to question even that. You see, most of my life I have relied upon the Spirit to guide my actions and choices, to make decisions that were pleasing to my Father in Heaven and my Saviour. I knew and valued my covenants and tried to keep them as best I could. This is where my details become vague, but I will try my best to illustrate my problem.
I am now facing an issue where I have gone before my Heavenly Father in prayer pleading for guidance. Along with the much-needed comfort and peace, I was given specific personal revelation (revelation has always been a part of my life and decision-making). I am coming to a point where that revelation may soon be proven false - it will either be fulfilled or it won’t, there is no in between here. I am facing the real possibility that, in light of some of the points that I have addressed earlier, this whole personal revelation, relying on the Spirit is nothing more than a psychological experience. The bottom line is this: either what was told to me through prayer was by the Spirit, or it wasn’t. If this revealed truth does not come to pass - and it’s strongly looking like it will not - then it could not have been revealed through the spirit of truth. If it was not, then I am forced to call into question how I ever gained a testimony in the first place.
We know that it is through peace and calm assurance that the Book of Mormon is true. We are privileged to experience this through prayer. This peace is how I know that the church is true. It is this same peace that accompanies my personal revelations - including this latest one. This revelation must come to pass as directed by the Spirit, or I no longer have any substance for my faith. I have no reason to believe that the church is true, because the reasons for believing it to be true are no longer reliable, and I am forced to examine other possibilities.
I don’t know what to do here. The last thing I want is to give up a belief system that has governed my life. I face many who would judge me. I face the possibility of hurting my family. I face the possibility of no longer having any purpose in life, or reason for doing anything. I can’t pray because my prayers are hollow and empty. I can’t read the scriptures because my cynicism and scepticism get the best of me. I continue to attend church and to live the standards, but time is fast approaching (a couple of months away) where that revelation will either be proven true or false. If that time approaches and it is proven false, I will have lost any reason to continue believing.
I don’t know what else to do. Please help.