Oxfordshire's Silk Spectre.

[kuzanagi_]

After careful and long deliberation I've concluded that there is only one possible outcome that will satisfactorily ameliorate my current situation. I'm going to have to buy Hayley a Silk Spectre II outfit

Comments

[kuzanagi_]

I'm pretty sure I've seen that a few times before.

It's actually my fault, because I don't personally put in sufficient effort to train him out of his negative behaviour. With Hayley he behaves much better, because she's trained him to do so. I tend to be fairly erratic with training him which isn't really very fair on him. I'm actually going to start training him over the weekend and to resume walking him in the morning before work so that ought to help. We reached a point last year where he would behave very well for me, but then I let the training slip and his habits returned.

To be honest, he's not actually that bad. I can control him perfectly well, and he's a happy healthy dog. There are times when I'm walking him that I'll actively choose to change route to avert potential confrontation (if I see a bunch of kids fifty yards ahead, I'll take an earlier turning for example since he's not very keen on children). Clearly I wouldn't if there was no choice, or if it meant significant backtracking, but generally I prefer to avoid potential problems. My point was more about the people who assume that he must be friendly despite him showing every indication that he doesn't like them ;)

[greebo]

well seems that you have a handle on it then :)

i thought i would mention ol cesar milan as he is a genius imo and this definitly rings a bell :P

[kuzanagi_]

I think part of the problem is that I treat him like he's a little person rather than a dog :)

Thanks for the suggestion, I appreciate it.

[greebo]

lol aye, that is probably one of the reasons :P

no problem at all :)

[hayleyk]

Good lord, I really hope you're joking. Cesar Milan?!! The guy is a wanker of the highest order and his methods are outdated and medieval. Dominance based training methods will get you nothing but a frightened dog and probably a few less fingers. Choking a dog until its eyes roll back in its head to show it 'who's boss'? Wrestling a dog to the floor to get the results you want? Beyond ridiculous. Positive reinforcement will get you much further with training any dog and you also get to keep your digits. No dog of mine will ever be subject to those barbaric methods.

Obi is fear aggressive, probably due to whichever muppet cut his microchip out before the age of 2 and abused him with a hairdryer flex prior to us rehoming him. He responds well to clicker training, is highly intelligent and a fantastic dog to be around but he does not like strangers, hence he is onlead whilst out walking. Anyone who approaches an onlead dog who is giving out clear 'bugger off' signals has got to be ten shades of dim. I am never tense when walking Obi yet his reaction is the same because he's fear aggressive, not picking up on our vibes. I've successfully taken Obi to agility classes with lots of people and offlead dogs yet he still displays the same reaction to strangers - he doesn't like them. Period.

If I ever want to either kill my dogs spirit and respect or lose a hand I'll try that muppets methods but until then I'll keep employing positive, reward based training. Just in case you want to know where I get my information from, my knowledge in this subject comes from owning and training bull breeds for the last 17 years and having very good, highly qualified canine trainers and behaviourists as friends.

[greebo]

im assuming that you are teh missus and im getting the impression that you and the mister will sometimes take this tact in introducing themselves as this is the tone he took when we started a dialogue :P

im not going to argue with you as you clearly know what you are talking about however i do feel that (from what i have seen on TV) that you are exaggerating a tad unless you have seen more than i have *shrug*

your other half was talking about something i had seen on quite a few episodes on the dog whisperer and i was making a suggestion, nothing more, i am no dog expert nor a worshipper of Cesar just someone trying to help

[hayleyk]

Lol - yes you are correct, I am the 'missus' and yes I should have introduced myself properly but I do tend to see red at the mention of that plonkers name. You have my apologies for my rather heavy handed way of saying hello!

In all seriousness, I'm not exaggerating when I say how damaging this guys methods are. He takes one fear and multiplies it but because the original behaviour no longer occurs (as the dog is now thinking SHIT!! when a situation arises) he thinks its successful training. All you end up with is a dog who was terrified of one thing but now has a bigger fear of something else. You may think I'm exaggerating but I have been privy to some accounts of this guys training (through behaviourists) and it is horrendous - what you see on tv is the watered down stuff (pebbles in a bottle, pet corrector sprays etc). There are, of course, loads of methods of training but positive reinforcement and shaping behaviours is a much kinder and more effective way of going about things. I find it heartbreaking that people follow his methods thinking they are doing good. Some of the dogs that end up in rescue with fear problems because people have employed dominance methods in their training never recover :(

You are totally correct in what you say that dogs pick up on people's anxieties - more so than a lot of people realise but with Obi you could be wearing a clown outfit whilst doing Riverdance and he wouldn't take a blind bit of notice - he's so frightened of strangers approaching that his fear just takes over and his vision becomes tunnel :o/ Its easier to avoid people altogether whilst out with him to be honest.

[greebo]

heehee its no problem at all i tend to be quite blunt myself when i think someone is being an arsehat ;)

i do understand that you do need to understand the situation fully before making a call like that (using these methods) but out of interest knowing that they do indeed work, wouldnt behaviour correction using his method be a better alternative than to destroy the animal? (im not saying this in Obi's case but in a case where the animals behaviour is in a very bad state?)

the idea btw, wasnt so much to employ the dicipline but more to recognise what part he may be playing in escalting the dogs reaction as that comes up in most of the episodes and try to help your other half maybe relax more and try not to anticipate the trouble, if that wont make a blind bit of difference then fair enough :P

[hayleyk]

I honestly don't believe that if a dog doesn't react positively to positive reinforcement then it is extremely unlikely to respond to dominance methods. I think if you ask most reputable behaviourists they will tell you that it would more than likely make the problem worse. There are some dogs are just so badly damaged that they are beyond help. I have a friend with an English Bull Terrier (Diesel) who is so fear aggressive that sometimes he sits in a corner facing the wall and shakes for hours and there appears to be no identifiable triggers. If you tried CM methods on Diesel he'd have your face off and then end up being pts as a dangerous dog when he's not, he's just a frightened dog.

I have to say, I wouldn't fancy trying the 'wrestling the dog to the ground in a bear hug' training method on a dog with aggression or fear issues - you're just asking for trouble. Mind you, swapping one behavioural issue for another does mean Mr Milan will never be out of work doesn't it...

[greebo]

well as i have said before, im no expert in these matters but having watched a few of his shows, one of the key points he highlights is how people fail to be consistant when deciding on how to train their dog which can help to escalate unwanted behaviour

i can see what you mean about trying to establish dominince, that it potentially could be harmful for the long term mental health of the animal however there are some episodes where he deals with fear aggressive dogs, does not apply any of these aggressive methods and appears to work wonders (im talking about showing his back to the animal in order to approach it, helping the animal come to terms with having people around etc.. and teaching the owners the best way to treat the dog without asserting dominance on an already submissive animal)

so i suppose what im saying is that surely he isnt *quite* as evil as all that? i think he does quite a good job of highlighting potential issues even if you dont choose to employ his methods *sorry bout the rambleness of this comment, im tired and not thinking straight but hopefully that made some semblance of sense ^^*

[kuzanagi_]

im assuming that you are teh missus and im getting the impression that you and the mister will sometimes take this tact in introducing themselves as this is the tone he took when we started a dialogue :P

Haha, believe it or not we're usually both very unabrasive. You just managed to pick me on a bad day, and select a topic that Hayley feels very strongly about ;)

[greebo]

rawr and i diffused you both using ma special ninja skillz! you never even saw me workin *stalks away in a ninja crabwalk*