not a lady

[kindkit]

Say that someone makes a post to a fandom community and addresses the members of that community as "ladies." Is it okay to politely respond that not everyone in the fandom/on the comm is a woman? Some of us are men (trans* or cis), some of us are genderqueer, androgynous, or otherwise not women. (And I'd imagine some of the women in the fandom don'

Comments

[flo_nelja]

I have seen "ladies" used in a situation of "mostly ladies".

I don't know in English, but in French, we have a rule "masculine terms if there is but one man in the group" which is quite sexist, and some people like to subvert it on purpose. I always use the female form of "they" about a class that I have with six guys and 23 girls. Grammatically, I shouldn't, propably. ^^;; But it's not about assuming.

[flo_nelja]

Or, to clarify : I do think it is wrong to make assumptions, but the person in question didn't necessarily make them, especially if he/she is ESL.

[kindkit]

I've looked at the user info--they live in the US and don't mention being ESL.

I do think there's a difference between "ladies" and the French-language situation you mention, because French has grammatical gender while English doesn't. So it's much harder to avoid gender-specific terminology in French. But I take your point.

[verasteine]

Personally, that is, cis woman, I wouldn't care much for being called 'lady'. But yeah, it's a separate (yet connected) issue. That said, bringing the whole thing up with a bit of humour helps in keeping down the defensiveness that is likely (unfortunately) to be the response to such a request. You're not wrong, but, as I think you know, I don't think it will be easily welcomed.

(Funny, thinking about it, how 'hey guys' could have and would have totally been considered gender-neutral, or at least acceptable. Just noting that, not making judgements.)

[kindkit]

how 'hey guys' could have and would have totally been considered gender-neutral

*nods* I've been trying to stop using it as a gender-neutral term for precisely that reason, but it's pretty engrained.

[malnpudl]

While I don't think I've ever made that particular error, I've done more or less equivalent things on LJ and have been, okay, abashed, but mostly very grateful when someone tactfully pointed out/explained what I'd done wrong (and did it in such a way that I didn't feel attacked and defensive). Yeah, I think it matters and it's worth speaking up.

[kindkit]

Yeah, I've had similar experiences and often been quite embarrassed initially, but, as you said, how can we learn if no one speaks up when we make mistakes?

[cerisaye]

Sure, done politely, with tact, I think it is helpful to point out to the poster they should never make assumptions about gender, rather opt for inclusive terminology.

[a2zmom]

I would go with this approach.

Assumptions are never a good thing.

[kindkit]

Inclusivity = good. And my concern really is mostly about trans*, genderqueer, androgynous, etc. people who experience being misgendered by the dominant culture, not about cis men who for once in their lives aren't the default.

[wolkendunst]

I am a cis woman. For a long time I never even thought about the dilemma you described, just because of my ignorance. But now I am aware of the problem and that is due to exactly this kind of discussion. So yes, I do think that it is important to speak up.

[kindkit]

*nods* When I think about how much I've learned about identity and social justice issues from being in online fandom, reading discussions, and being corrected when I fuck up . . . it's amazing.