I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. In fact, I've posted this, and then checked verizonhorizon's link, and I thought, yeah, that's what I was talking about, but that's not what I really want. People are just gonna play nice and you'll never get to hear what they really think anyway.
Because yes, there should be a way to say that I didn't like a story. I'm not talking about personal squicks, like, 'I think it's a bad fic because it deals with mpreg and I hate it.' No, I'm talking about 'I didn't like this fic, because I think the characters were OOC without a reason, and I can prove it, because...' sort of thing. Not wank, but an exchange of opinions. Because maybe I'm wrong, maybe I don't get something, and people will convince me otherwise.
Because when I mentioned that other fic in my other post, I was convinced that the only people who thought that that fic was poor (as in the easiest road taken) writing were me and my cat, and she's not even a human. I was forced to screen the comments because I was getting a lot of 'I think the same' lines and a lot of them sounded relieved that there was finally a place to say it.
I suppose my question is: can we have any kind of civilized discussion of things we don't like in others' writing?
So, essentially you're saying that published authors who get paid for their works are also paid to receive unfavorable reviews, but those writing for free shouldn't be subjected to the same treatment?
I have a question for you then. Do not people who post their stories online realize that among their readers there will be those who will not agree with them and say so? I mean, do you believe that every author of ff is only willing/ready/expecting to receive positive feedback for every bit of creative and sometimes 'creative' thought they type down and post? I'm just asking. Because I'm reading a lot of ff and I haven't seen a button that says 'comment only to praise' anywhere.
Seriously? Comment only to praise?
I understand that authors have fragile egos. Why? Because I'm an author. In my ff life, I have posted roughly 1 000 000 words. I've been praised, I've been trashed, I've been criticized, I've been worshiped, and I've been receiving silent treatment. I've seen it all, because that's how people are. I can't make someone like my writing if they don't. But I can address their concerns if they have a problem with something and say so. Why should this not exist?
And why should I say nothing when I read a fic where Spock is being cruel and harsh and pig-headedly xenophobic toward a child who adores him? Oh, I fully realize that the author has written it for the fun of it. But by doing so she is abusing a character that I love and is doing so having no foundation whatsoever for it, except for her desire to paint Spock as a jerk. She isn't saying in her A/N 'I realize Spock is OCC here.' either.
Do you know what happened? I didn't comment and didn't read further on. Because 'don't like -- don't read.' Honestly? I don't, not one bit, feel better about it.
I see. Well, in certain respects you're right, there's no denying that. But I guess this discussion made me realize one thing that will probably paint me as crazy. Which, BTW, I'm okay with.
I take fanfiction more seriously than other people do, which isn't the crazy part yet. The crazy part is, I believe the characters have rights. Or must have rights, but they can't defend them. I'm not talking about (c), I'm talking about within the fandom.
What benefit do I get when I exceed the speed limit and have to pay a fine? I learn not to do it again. What benefit does an author get from hearing that their portrayal of a character isn't perfect with a fact-list attached? Presumably, they might think twice while writing the next story if they are being fair.
Why am I pushing this? Because I want the fandom in general to be better. I want every author to be self-aware and responsible -- even when they write PWPs. I understand yes, that it's never going to happen. Because it's easier and much more cozy playing nice.
You're right about why people come here. It's to dive into an illusion of not-RL. And if we think of that, then yes, your position has more merit than mine. Everyone is entitled to their illusions, whichever ones they choose. Some believe that there are other planets with pointy-eared people. And some believe that when they write they can do no wrong. To each their own.
So while I don't think you're crazy, I just think it's idealist.
I've been called worse. :D
*sighs* Yes, I know. The art of giving and receiving critique is an almost extinct one, cherished ritually in the private shrines of our discussions with our betas and friends. Those of friends who actually do say what they think to your face, that is. I do believe that this situation isn't healthy, because sometimes a story could be made better by changing one or two things and no reviews don't exactly help with that.
That said, no, I'm not starting my crusade tomorrow. The windmills might live to see another day. ;)
Not to be totally rude, but I suppose I am butting into the middle of your conversation... ignore me at your leisure. :-)
It doesn't seem to me that a place where people could give and receive actual, in-depth critique would be an idealist thing to consider at all. The fact is, the flamers that exist in the actual fandom would exist in in this one if they so desired it, so the only difference would be that what they were saying was, in a tiny, tiny way, condoned - even though the way they're saying it would not be. But I don't think the idea here is to create some kind of forum where you post your story so that a ton of people can bitch about it to your face. It seems like an awesome idea if it is the author's choice to put their story up in this potential corner of the web.
Which is not to say that the really polite, unhelpful rest of fandom is unnecessary. That's like saying the Harry Potter books are unnecessary. Sure, they're not like Shakespeare or Remains of the Day. They don't help you improve all that much, but it's a nice place to relax and just generally chill. The existence of real critique is not something I would call 'idealist,' however. The fact is, as you've pointed out, most fanfiction writers are aspiring writers. Yes, this means they're sensitive, but this also means that a large portion of them have a strong desire to improve themselves and a strong sense of what good writing is, something they've worked out through their work. Basically, what I'm saying is, all us aspiring writers would be amazingly helpful to one another.
... I still feel like I'm kind of intruding. Seriously. Just skip over this if you want to. I just kind of felt the need to put that out there. >_<
I disagree with the notion that such a comm would condone flamers however tiny-ly. Constructive criticism is called that because it's supposed to be above personal preferences and subjective stuff. If I tell somebody something is wrong/right, I should be able to prove it or shut up.
That said, I didn't think it was idealist, too, but looks like I was wrong, I see that now.
And you're not intruding, of course not. This is a free for all debate post. ;)
I would hope we could, if it is done with restraint and care, and without getting too easily offended either. But maybe I am too new to fandom to have seen the ways it can all go horribly wrong.
But on this point: civilized discussion of things we don't like I'd like to participate in a discussion that looked to encompass good as well as bad. Why this fic works so well, how the author gets it right. And in my own writing, where my strengths are in the eyes of my readers so I can move in that direction ("loved it, awesome" type of comments don't tell me that either). I'm more interested in the good-to-great end of the spectrum than in piling scorn on the many truly bad fanfics that exist. They are all simply solved with the back button.
Different expectations of fic might make it tricky. I read through your previous post and started getting cold feet :) thinking oh god, she's all about TOS, about Spock, about epic fic, about hard-core socio-political commentary (exaggerrating a bit here). And I write short fluffy AOS Bones-centric pieces. Still, I'd be up for trying.
I'd like to participate in a discussion that looked to encompass good as well as bad.
Which is, in short, the essence of constructive criticism. :D
The thing is, while there are some incredibly wonderful readers who take the time to point out good things about a fic, I've never seen similar lists done for things that weren't nice. I realize now that it might sound in this post as if I'm trying to push through a strictly negative discussion, but it's not true. I merely wish that there was room for the whole spectrum of opinions, not just glowing ones.
LOL. I'm not really that scary. And different genres are different genres. I can understand that. ;)
Because yes, there should be a way to say that I didn't like a story. I'm not talking about personal squicks, like, 'I think it's a bad fic because it deals with mpreg and I hate it.' No, I'm talking about 'I didn't like this fic, because I think the characters were OOC without a reason, and I can prove it, because...' sort of thing. Not wank, but an exchange of opinions. Because maybe I'm wrong, maybe I don't get something, and people will convince me otherwise.
Because when I mentioned that other fic in my other post, I was convinced that the only people who thought that that fic was poor (as in the easiest road taken) writing were me and my cat, and she's not even a human. I was forced to screen the comments because I was getting a lot of 'I think the same' lines and a lot of them sounded relieved that there was finally a place to say it.
I suppose my question is: can we have any kind of civilized discussion of things we don't like in others' writing?
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I have a question for you then. Do not people who post their stories online realize that among their readers there will be those who will not agree with them and say so? I mean, do you believe that every author of ff is only willing/ready/expecting to receive positive feedback for every bit of creative and sometimes 'creative' thought they type down and post? I'm just asking. Because I'm reading a lot of ff and I haven't seen a button that says 'comment only to praise' anywhere.
Seriously? Comment only to praise?
I understand that authors have fragile egos. Why? Because I'm an author. In my ff life, I have posted roughly 1 000 000 words. I've been praised, I've been trashed, I've been criticized, I've been worshiped, and I've been receiving silent treatment. I've seen it all, because that's how people are. I can't make someone like my writing if they don't. But I can address their concerns if they have a problem with something and say so. Why should this not exist?
And why should I say nothing when I read a fic where Spock is being cruel and harsh and pig-headedly xenophobic toward a child who adores him? Oh, I fully realize that the author has written it for the fun of it. But by doing so she is abusing a character that I love and is doing so having no foundation whatsoever for it, except for her desire to paint Spock as a jerk. She isn't saying in her A/N 'I realize Spock is OCC here.' either.
Do you know what happened? I didn't comment and didn't read further on. Because 'don't like -- don't read.' Honestly? I don't, not one bit, feel better about it.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I take fanfiction more seriously than other people do, which isn't the crazy part yet. The crazy part is, I believe the characters have rights. Or must have rights, but they can't defend them. I'm not talking about (c), I'm talking about within the fandom.
What benefit do I get when I exceed the speed limit and have to pay a fine? I learn not to do it again. What benefit does an author get from hearing that their portrayal of a character isn't perfect with a fact-list attached? Presumably, they might think twice while writing the next story if they are being fair.
Why am I pushing this? Because I want the fandom in general to be better. I want every author to be self-aware and responsible -- even when they write PWPs. I understand yes, that it's never going to happen. Because it's easier and much more cozy playing nice.
You're right about why people come here. It's to dive into an illusion of not-RL. And if we think of that, then yes, your position has more merit than mine. Everyone is entitled to their illusions, whichever ones they choose. Some believe that there are other planets with pointy-eared people. And some believe that when they write they can do no wrong. To each their own.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I've been called worse. :D
*sighs* Yes, I know. The art of giving and receiving critique is an almost extinct one, cherished ritually in the private shrines of our discussions with our betas and friends. Those of friends who actually do say what they think to your face, that is. I do believe that this situation isn't healthy, because sometimes a story could be made better by changing one or two things and no reviews don't exactly help with that.
That said, no, I'm not starting my crusade tomorrow. The windmills might live to see another day. ;)
Reply
It doesn't seem to me that a place where people could give and receive actual, in-depth critique would be an idealist thing to consider at all. The fact is, the flamers that exist in the actual fandom would exist in in this one if they so desired it, so the only difference would be that what they were saying was, in a tiny, tiny way, condoned - even though the way they're saying it would not be. But I don't think the idea here is to create some kind of forum where you post your story so that a ton of people can bitch about it to your face. It seems like an awesome idea if it is the author's choice to put their story up in this potential corner of the web.
Which is not to say that the really polite, unhelpful rest of fandom is unnecessary. That's like saying the Harry Potter books are unnecessary. Sure, they're not like Shakespeare or Remains of the Day. They don't help you improve all that much, but it's a nice place to relax and just generally chill. The existence of real critique is not something I would call 'idealist,' however. The fact is, as you've pointed out, most fanfiction writers are aspiring writers. Yes, this means they're sensitive, but this also means that a large portion of them have a strong desire to improve themselves and a strong sense of what good writing is, something they've worked out through their work. Basically, what I'm saying is, all us aspiring writers would be amazingly helpful to one another.
... I still feel like I'm kind of intruding. Seriously. Just skip over this if you want to. I just kind of felt the need to put that out there. >_<
Reply
That said, I didn't think it was idealist, too, but looks like I was wrong, I see that now.
And you're not intruding, of course not. This is a free for all debate post. ;)
Reply
But on this point: civilized discussion of things we don't like I'd like to participate in a discussion that looked to encompass good as well as bad. Why this fic works so well, how the author gets it right. And in my own writing, where my strengths are in the eyes of my readers so I can move in that direction ("loved it, awesome" type of comments don't tell me that either). I'm more interested in the good-to-great end of the spectrum than in piling scorn on the many truly bad fanfics that exist. They are all simply solved with the back button.
Different expectations of fic might make it tricky. I read through your previous post and started getting cold feet :) thinking oh god, she's all about TOS, about Spock, about epic fic, about hard-core socio-political commentary (exaggerrating a bit here). And I write short fluffy AOS Bones-centric pieces. Still, I'd be up for trying.
Reply
Which is, in short, the essence of constructive criticism. :D
The thing is, while there are some incredibly wonderful readers who take the time to point out good things about a fic, I've never seen similar lists done for things that weren't nice. I realize now that it might sound in this post as if I'm trying to push through a strictly negative discussion, but it's not true. I merely wish that there was room for the whole spectrum of opinions, not just glowing ones.
LOL. I'm not really that scary. And different genres are different genres. I can understand that. ;)
Reply
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