Heh. As you already know, I disagree (chat discussion), but to each his own, I suppose. I just hope that some newbie doesn't see this big list and become discouraged. Luckily, those of us who see the other side of the coin don't mind speaking out. I do understand what you mean, but by wording it this way, it seems that you are blaming bad writing on saidisms and other things
( ... )
I'm all for discouraging newbies. Cluttering up the place, coming into the fandom, stealing my reviews.
We should put up a big fence and stop them coming in, I say.
There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit of literary quality in the fandom. I like a bit of subtlety and wit in my reading, thank you. And, much as I like JKR, I'm not about to hold her up as an example of good writing. It's a children's book, and no amount of fees she gets paid for it is going to change that into War and Peace.
War and Peace is deadly dull, but that's a different matter.
The thing is, she's right to say that you shouldn't always fall back on saidisms, and sometimes it is the sign of a lazy writer. I just don't think you can go so far as to say it's inevitably and inexorably wrong - sometimes it's the right thing to do.
Oh, I don't deny she's the right to say it or to an opinion on it. I just strongly disagree. Many newbies become great writers and, interestingly enough, some move on to become published. If someone, though, would "scare" them off before they learn and come into their own, then they might never succeed.
I like newbies. I like the new and fresh ideas that some of them bring to the fandom. That's not to say older writers haven't the same appeal, as I do prefer those whose writings I know and trust. And, heh, I only use JKR because it's the one the poster used. Teehee. There are plenty of things I don't like about what she's done as an author, but it seems to work for her.
I think you overestimate the ability of newbies to improve, which is why you beta and encourage and I run away screaming from anyone who isn't experienced.
But one of the things that you learn is how to write more and better, and show not tell. Using lots of said can be a sign of showing and not telling - it's worth looking at from that point of view - but that's not to say it's always wrong.
And I am definitely guilty of trying to be encouraging to newbies. Sadly, as you are well aware, some never do grow or seem to care about much other than reviews or squees.
Well, thank God you encouraged me, otherwise I would've stopped writing my first fic! You really kept me going, and still do for that matter. And, without trying to sound wrong, I would like to think that my stories have improved from the first one to the one I am currently working on!
There's nothing "discouraging" about pointing someone to good guidelines of craft. Why is that wrong, and yet it's right to be so insistant about how many points you use in an ellipsis? I think a plethora of junk words (and sometimes laughable ones like "he ejaculated" and "she interjected") affects readablility a lot more, and it is a lot less discouraging to a newbie's creativity to tell them to eschew them, than insisting on obeying the comma rules.
I think telling someone their work is rubbish because they use too many saidisms is very discouraging. There are ways to explain things that can project the same point, but with different results.
"Look, a point of advice is that you have too many saidisms in here. You could use a bit less and still project the same thing. Instead of saying his words are urgent, show us through your dialogue or descriptions."
instead of:
"Ha, this is laughable. That sux. Any educated person knows this."
Which that isn't the way she's said it either, but it's definitely how it comes across to me.
As far as ellispis, well, that's grammar and whatever book you follow for grammar, follow the rules on it, and you can't go wrong. Just saying someone needs to use three or four ellipses instead of six or ten isn't saying their work will never be seen as "art". It's saying, "Buck up on your punctuation." And there is nothing biting about it, as it's not a personal attack on the author's plot, choice of words, or style.
As far as ellispis, well, that's grammar and whatever book you follow for grammar, follow the rules on it, and you can't go wrong. Just saying someone needs to use three or four ellipses instead of six or ten isn't saying their work will never be seen as "art". It's saying, "Buck up on your punctuation." And there is nothing biting about it, as it's not a personal attack on the author's plot, choice of words, or style.Except I think you can go wrong when it comes to grammar, and it truly is discouraging to throw the book at a newbie, grammar-wise, particularly when it's a point that is nitpicky and disputable. I've looked at published works--and many don't ever, ever, ever use the 4 points. Apparently, whether or not to use them is a matter of House style to be corrected or not by copyeditors
( ... )
I point to JKR because she's the one Keket mentions in her initial post. That comment was meant in reference to that, not because she's someone I hold dear as an author. You needn't point out any of her odd styles to me, as I'm well aware of them, and I believe if you truly had been listening to what I've said in past conversations, you would know that I agree with certain things for stylistic purposes.
The archives do indeed have every right to have rules they follow and to post them there. I think if people don't want to follow them, they shouldn't post. Simple as that.
As far as grammar and newbies, that guidance is very much needed. If there are rules that are arguable, controversial, etc., then it should be up to said newbie to choose what rule they want to follow so long as they are consistent. I see many people getting published that use odd grammar and bend rules. Power to them. While I don't like it, I won't sit back and laugh about it, considering they are making money for their work while I am not.
Well both you and keket have a tendency to be rather definite in your opinions, and I tend to see things in a little more grey. And being that definite could stifle someone's creativity.
Knowing grammar and punctuation is important, but it's a tool to be mastered and not followed slavishly. And that's true of any other of the 'rules' on good writing - for every occasion that it might be true, there may be others where it isn't.
That's my only point. Nothing is ever that definite.
I'm sure people like JKR are experiencing peals of laughter of their own while counting their money when they see people trying to put down their widely read and appreciated work.
People don't read JKR for her style--they read her for her plotting and worldbuilding and characters they care about. Just as people don't read Dan Brown for his style but his plotting and pacing. Just because bestsellers are riddled with saidism (and cardboard characterizations and sloppy reaseach) doesn't mean they sell because of it, or that its elitist to point out where they fail.
Unless, of course, you consider such writers as Elmore Leonard, Elizabeth George, Dean Koontz, Stephen King--bestselling popular writers all--as "elitist" - because they say using them is a bad idea too.
As I said someplace on here, I don't care much what some authors say because others will say the opposite. I think both sides of the story should be told and examples from all works should be given.
And I know people don't read JKR for her style, but I do know she has a very funky style that is making her millions of dollars. And it's the same style that Keket laughs at. Please don't twist my words.
I don't think I am--though I may be misunderstanding them if that's your reaction. In any case, given the above, I'll just leave this alone. My purpose was indeed to give the other side and not just leave Keket alone on her side of the debate--even though she can certainly speak for herself and more authoritatively than I can. I certainly did not mean to insult you or upset you by giving you my opinion.
But I told her that I can agree with what she's saying, on some level, just not how it's said. The initial post comes across as a little pretentious in its wording. When reworded and presented differently, it makes sense. (Shiv says it perfectly up there someplace.) I'm all for improving bad writing and am trying to work on that myself in my own storiess, but I think if one wants to give advice, maybe it should be clarified or expressed differently. Ah, well. It's all good though. I just came nosing about because we'd had this conversation in chat already, so what I said wasn't anything new to her. I just wanted to join in the discourse to share my views.
Reply
We should put up a big fence and stop them coming in, I say.
There's nothing wrong with wanting a bit of literary quality in the fandom. I like a bit of subtlety and wit in my reading, thank you. And, much as I like JKR, I'm not about to hold her up as an example of good writing. It's a children's book, and no amount of fees she gets paid for it is going to change that into War and Peace.
War and Peace is deadly dull, but that's a different matter.
The thing is, she's right to say that you shouldn't always fall back on saidisms, and sometimes it is the sign of a lazy writer. I just don't think you can go so far as to say it's inevitably and inexorably wrong - sometimes it's the right thing to do.
Reply
I like newbies. I like the new and fresh ideas that some of them bring to the fandom. That's not to say older writers haven't the same appeal, as I do prefer those whose writings I know and trust. And, heh, I only use JKR because it's the one the poster used. Teehee. There are plenty of things I don't like about what she's done as an author, but it seems to work for her.
Reply
But one of the things that you learn is how to write more and better, and show not tell. Using lots of said can be a sign of showing and not telling - it's worth looking at from that point of view - but that's not to say it's always wrong.
When I do it, it's just fine
Reply
And I am definitely guilty of trying to be encouraging to newbies. Sadly, as you are well aware, some never do grow or seem to care about much other than reviews or squees.
:( Ah, well...
Reply
Reply
Reply
"Look, a point of advice is that you have too many saidisms in here. You could use a bit less and still project the same thing. Instead of saying his words are urgent, show us through your dialogue or descriptions."
instead of:
"Ha, this is laughable. That sux. Any educated person knows this."
Which that isn't the way she's said it either, but it's definitely how it comes across to me.
As far as ellispis, well, that's grammar and whatever book you follow for grammar, follow the rules on it, and you can't go wrong. Just saying someone needs to use three or four ellipses instead of six or ten isn't saying their work will never be seen as "art". It's saying, "Buck up on your punctuation." And there is nothing biting about it, as it's not a personal attack on the author's plot, choice of words, or style.
Reply
Reply
The archives do indeed have every right to have rules they follow and to post them there. I think if people don't want to follow them, they shouldn't post. Simple as that.
As far as grammar and newbies, that guidance is very much needed. If there are rules that are arguable, controversial, etc., then it should be up to said newbie to choose what rule they want to follow so long as they are consistent. I see many people getting published that use odd grammar and bend rules. Power to them. While I don't like it, I won't sit back and laugh about it, considering they are making money for their work while I am not.
Reply
Knowing grammar and punctuation is important, but it's a tool to be mastered and not followed slavishly. And that's true of any other of the 'rules' on good writing - for every occasion that it might be true, there may be others where it isn't.
That's my only point. Nothing is ever that definite.
Reply
People don't read JKR for her style--they read her for her plotting and worldbuilding and characters they care about. Just as people don't read Dan Brown for his style but his plotting and pacing. Just because bestsellers are riddled with saidism (and cardboard characterizations and sloppy reaseach) doesn't mean they sell because of it, or that its elitist to point out where they fail.
Unless, of course, you consider such writers as Elmore Leonard, Elizabeth George, Dean Koontz, Stephen King--bestselling popular writers all--as "elitist" - because they say using them is a bad idea too.
Reply
And I know people don't read JKR for her style, but I do know she has a very funky style that is making her millions of dollars. And it's the same style that Keket laughs at. Please don't twist my words.
Reply
I don't think I am--though I may be misunderstanding them if that's your reaction. In any case, given the above, I'll just leave this alone. My purpose was indeed to give the other side and not just leave Keket alone on her side of the debate--even though she can certainly speak for herself and more authoritatively than I can. I certainly did not mean to insult you or upset you by giving you my opinion.
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment