You know, I'm totally wanting to write fic where Jack is this horribly out-of-character psychopath who is doing Our Sam wrong (i.e. conking her on the head, tossing her in the back of his car, and hauling her off to the Deserted Warehouse O' LUV to have his evil way with her)and it's a good, noble, and improbably heroic Pete who has to step in,
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Because I never found the canon all that overbearing or badly written. And I thought it added a little human interest to the show. Granted, I'd have preferred it be Daniel, but, meh, it was just *fine* as it was. And Sam and Daniel had their little moments, so I was a happy fan.
But the *ire* that some people had for Sam. How *dare* she... well, just about everything. I mentioned how these little inappropriate attractions happen *all the damn time* in RL. How in some ways, *of course* Sam was attracted to Jack - not because he was an 'Alpha male' per se, but because he was the same kind of man her father was and like it or not, that influences our choices as women. He was a man she could respect and who respected her. In fact, he respected her *so* much, that he never asked her to throw her career out the window to sit at home and have his babies!
What really hit me about the end of 'The Other Side' was when Jack let that guy smack into the iris. When Sam looked at him, she really got a peek at his dark side and I imagine it took her a little while to reconcile that. Sure, she *knew* he'd been black ops, but she'd never seen his dark side in action like that. And he wasn't even *sorry*! I think that's what really hit her hard. Ship or no ship, it had to have affected her perception of Jack and who he was.
and so I drone on...
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I'm a little weirded out by the Sam/Daniel early stuff, not because I mind Sam/Daniel, but because he HAD A WIFE. (Mind you, if they'd actually gone with Sam/Daniel, I probably wouldn't have minded it because, oh, they would have talked about that issue (assuming the writers thought about Sha're at all) and it could have been gloriously angsty.)
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You know, it's really strange. And... I mean, I'm not even sure how to answer that!
I guess I'd have to say that I'm not a fan of real resolution for *any* of the characters. Even showing Daniel and Vala together in Unending has just about killed off any desire I have to write Daniel fic. It's sad and I'm struggling with it, because it's an AU, but still.
For me, if they resolve any of the relationships, it'll kill my interest. Because they live in my head long, long past the end of the show. Even now, that little nudge, nudge from Malozzi... bugs me.
But for me it's not pessimistic. Not at all! Because without resolution, they're all free to sex each other forever and ever. The flirtation and subtext etc. can live on forever. If you resolve the relationship, then the characters involved aren't free to have chemistry with anyone else without partner betrayal entering the picture. Which is ugly and not something I'm generally thrilled with exploring (the exception is Come to Grief, where I explore it quite a bit). So the involved characters become dead-ends to me as a writer and even as a fan. I can't *do* anything interesting with them anymore. That's what I get being a canon whore :)
I guess I'm not fond of romantic resolution at all. Because what happens after that isn't interesting to me. Domestic fic, babies, etc. None of it's my cup of tea.
As a friend of mine once said, 'They didn't poke my eyes out when I got married'. Which leaves Sam and Daniel free to flirt all they like without Daniel breaking his vows to Sha're. And even in my Come to Grief fics, Daniel is *very* conflicted about it. He's not happy at all. He's reluctant to go along with what Sam wants but ultimately does because he cares about her and he's too damn tired to fight. It's really angsty ;) I don't handwave either of their outside attractions/commitments. They're both very much in denial about what it means to them.
Wow, I have a lot to say on the subject.
Karma, I'm sorry if I've hijacked your thread. If you'd like Trout and I to take this offline, just say so :)
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Thanks! I'm glad you're enjoying it!
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I think, although I'm also a canon whore, that the resolution or lack thereof doesn't bother me as much. Although if it's done wrong (*eyes JAG*), it's horrible. I tend to roll with the punches--I've either given up waiting for a completely logical and fair and good treatment of the characters, or I haven't yet reached my breaking point--usually, if I can't stand the way canon is treating someone, I give up on the canon (*eyes Crossing Jordan*).
But I *can* absolutely understand the idea of you not liking resolution in general (in canon, and possibly even fics). It all comes down to how we process the stories, and what we want out of fandom. To me, in fic, having a shippy resolution (done well) is awesome, but not necessary. And in canon, as long as the resolution isn't delayed just to garner ratings, I'm okay with it. Like...some shows play too loose and fast with resolving romantic storylines, and that drives me crazy. But in Stargate, I really REALLY appreciate that the characters flirt but don't sleep around with each other (at least canonically). Then, you don't *have* to resolve. I think the one area this bit them on the ass was with Sam/Jack. They flirted a bit too much to not do anything with it and not enough to make the canon-whore Sam/Jack shippers happy.
You know, I wasn't happy with the shorter version of Threads, because there wasn't enough with Sam and Pete to justify calling it off (which really ought to have been done over a longer period of time, anyway, but I'm not going to go there now). And I wasn't happy with the longer version because there was too much soap-opera theatrics (a la Kerry, who was completely unecessary, except to create tension that would have already been there--and she just fuels the "Sam is the one mooning" argument.)
I didn't know I had this much opinion in me.
(I also wish Unending hadn't gone there with Daniel/Vala. Because now them getting together in the canon 'verse feels very...stagnant.)
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Gods, yes! Crossing Jordan went from a show I adored to one I couldn't stand. The whole Woody thing just annoyed the crap out of me. Don't even get me started on the whole Lily arc. Geez, way to destroy characters! I far preferred the Jordan who would go out and sleep with the wrong guys. Far, far more interesting to me than the whole Woody/Jordon dance. The show went from a crime drama about dead people to a romantic comedy/drama. Bleh! (I feel like a 15 year old getting squicked about kissing or something equally silly)
But in Stargate, I really REALLY appreciate that the characters flirt but don't sleep around with each other (at least canonically).
Yes, exactly. I honestly think where they took a wrong turn was in showing all these AUs and time warps where Jack/Sam IS resolved in one way or another, which was in some ways just a cruel tease to the hardcore shippers. I think if they'd switched it up a bit, say have an AU where she was with Daniel rather than Jack, it would have taken the heat off a bit. Sure, I'd love to see it, but it would help cool the whole, "OMG! They're together all through different times and realities! They *must* be meant to be together for all time." feeling of many shippers. No, they wouldn't like it and piss and moan about it, but in the long run, it'd honestly feel more 'right' to me based on the randomness principle. Hell, make it Teal'c or... Davis. I was glad to see her with Joe Foxton (or whatever his name was) in a 2010.
So yeah, I think TPTB put a bit too fine a point on it, rather than keeping it light and fun.
Con't in Pt 2
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I think if they'd switched it up a bit, say have an AU where she was with Daniel rather than Jack, it would have taken the heat off a bit.
YES. OMG. I mean, if you're going to do the whole Sam/Jack bit, with the TWU LUV IT'S DESTINY bit, then fine. DO IT. If not, then mix it up. Also, I think it's better "now," as we've had an AU where she ends up with Rodney (with some major tension elsewhere, too). Plus, it's totally not fair, as she is the only main woman character.
Er...I'll just respond all in one comment here.
I don't have very much of a problem with Sam. I always interpreted her as very career-focused, not great at relationships, and the whole Pete storyine? Actually, I really liked it. Because she went outside herself, tried something new, and eventually decided that no, it wasn't going to make her happy.
I LOVED that Kerry wasn't a blond Sam-clone. Jeez. How creepy would that have been? And you know, Jack strikes me as the type to have partners here and there. That part of it didn't bother me. What bothered me was pairing it *with* Sam's breakup, as you mentioned.
I also liked Daniel's rant. I thought it was a great take on the character, and that whole scene gave me chills. It made me very uncomfortable, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. After all, we already know Daniel isn't the idealistic, "it'll all work out" young academic we first saw. And Vala--we'll, it's nice to see that deep sadness I think has to be there under the surface she shows to the world.
Now, take that with the grain of salt that says I like my Stargate as a comedy rather than a tragedy. Hee.
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Threads was really sort of a cluster-fuck in a lot of ways. I think it was *supposed* to resolve a lot of things but it just seemed to muddy the waters even more! I'm not sure what would have helped it. It's tempting to say it should have been longer, but eeeh, I don't know if I could have stood an even longer version.
You're right, we should have seen some indication of Pete and Sam's breakup long before this. Yeah, we saw Sam being all ambivalent about it, but that's hard to translate.
In some ways, no matter what or who Sam's doing behind the scenes, I think we saw a new confidence in her when she came back. She'd come through the other side and was stronger for it. So, ultimately, I think it was good character-building in the long run. It just could have been done much better.
YES! Daniel's rant was very uncomfortable. I think I've only watched it once since it aired. I kind of think it was meant to be, because really, who wants to see someone they care about lose it? Like I said, I'd sort of seen the progression and so seeing that was really wonderful.
Vala was fabulous. He'd totally stripped her down emotionally as he vented all his frustrations and reluctance to be vulnerable. They were both emotionally naked long before they took off their clothes.
But that's exactly what makes it so hard for me to write Daniel now. That was such a touching scene. Done so very, very well, that even though it wasn't something I really wanted to see, I was glad I did. Daniel *deserves* to be able to let his guard down with someone and Vala needs someone who she can trust and who truly cares for her, deep down.
Fabulous to pick at things like this with you!
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YES. I love the new, more confident Sam. I'm glad that TPTB allowed her to grow that way.
That was such a touching scene. Done so very, very well,
Which it could easily have been done really, really badly. *whispers prayer to TPTB not to mess it up*
They were both emotionally naked long before they took off their clothes.
This scene made me wonder if perhaps SG-1 could have pulled off a little more emotional depth through the years. On the other hand, we have Threads. So... *grins*
(Then there's always the caveat that I could happily watch Claudia Black butter toast.)
I do wish Unending had been slightly different, but I'm hard-pressed to answer how, exactly. There's nothing that you can do for a long-running show that *doesn't* feel like a letdown, in some ways.
Oh! And for as much as I DON'T like Threads, I hope it doesn't seem *too* strange that I LOVE Moebius. Because it's exactly like a Coda for the series to that point. *shrugs* Maybe I'm just easy.
I'm have a lot of fun! I hope that the kind and generous journal-owner still isn't upset with us.
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Which it could easily have been done really, really badly. *whispers prayer to TPTB not to mess it up*
You know, from what I hear, we have Michael and Claudia to thank for that scene. It had been written totally differently, with them sleeping together and *then* Daniel going, 'What does that mean? For me? For us? What is this, really?' And it felt all wrong to them, so it was re-written to what we saw.
And I agree. That would have undermined Daniel's character badly. Made him look really weak. First for giving in to her and then sort of playing the 'girl' role with the 'What does this mean?' stuff. Not that gender trades like that are inherently bad. I've liked things that have been done like that, but I don't think it would have worked in those circumstances or with these characters.
This scene made me wonder if perhaps SG-1 could have pulled off a little more emotional depth through the years.
Well, I had this conversation with someone a month or so ago. At its heart, Stargate has always been based on the Action/Adventure model. It's fundamentally different from shows like Farscape that way. And unfortunately the Action/Adventure model doesn't lend itself well to a whole lot of deep character stuff. Sure, we get it once in a while, just like Farscape did Action/Adventure stuff (and did it very well). But first and foremost is was about the *characters* sharing space on a living ship.
Even the filming techniques are different between those types of shows. I've even read interviews with the Stargate actors who'd love to see more character stuff themselves, but in the end, moving the stories forward is critical to the show. So those character moments get lost.
I'm with you on Unending. It's not something I watch often and I agree, I'm not sure what would have made it... you know, it's hard to say 'better' because I thought it was really, really a lovely show. But it was unsatisfying in some ways. Or maybe it's just sad to all of us because it was the very last show. And in some ways I find it... kinda creepy. It's hard to explain.
Geez, I don't know anyone who doesn't like Moebius. I would have preferred that they'd played out the Sam/Daniel stuff that seemed working in the beginning, but... meh, I've learned not to expect anything but Jack/Sam stuff from TPTB. Which is... disappointing. And predictable. Couldn't they change it up *once* in a while? But yes, overall, I loved it!
And I'm annoyed that they've insisted on dragging the whole Jack/Sam thing over to Atlantis. In fact, I'm a bit pissed off about it, though it was never actually played out. Well, but they still love it so much they're going to include it as a cut scene on the DVD. But I just wish they'd stop *poking* at it! It pisses off OTP shippers because it's not enough for them and it pisses off people like me who have no problem if that's what people want to believe(and yes, we *can* see the logic in it!), but isn't my personal... whatever. Backstory? And it annoys the fuck out of me (pardon my language) because they think they're being oh, so cute. Just leave. It. Alone! Because it makes people like me, who are pretty much live and let live, but aren't totally invested either way really start to hate J/S. Sad, but true. It makes me feel defensive and cranky. I don't like feeling that way.
It's sad, but there's no quicker way to lose me as a fan than to pair everyone off. Pair off Sam with Jack and what happens to the lovely UST we see between Sam and Cam? It's dead. Same with Daniel and Vala. No more UST with Sam for Daniel. Or Vala with Cam. Or Teal'c. Can't go there. And maybe UST is the wrong phrase, but... any subtext or sexual tension is out the window.
Bah! I'll quit carping about it. You're probably sick to death of me flogging that particular deceased equine ;)
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Carping! Tee hee. <----That's how mature I am, ladies and gentlemen.
I think I'd love to see a wonderful, on-screen, canonical relationship done well. I haven't yet seen one (barring John/Aeryn) which doesn't feel manipulated to hell--mostly when TPTB try to keep the two characters apart, not together. So I end up getting really frustrated that things *don't* resolve. I've said it before--television shows run too long for the character mode to work out. Farscape succeeds partly because it didn't run for 10 years. There's a conclusion. The characters still make some twisted, illogical, wonderful sense. Sort of.
Whereas with Crossing Jordan, the characters ended up being twisted so people wouldn't end up happy, so the show could continue. I can't express how much I hate that.
You know, I sorta agree about the Sam/Jack in SGA. I mean, the cut scene made me squee, but I don't want it in the show. Although, at least they left the wording nebulous. *rolls eyes*
And about Moebius--I think it was supposed to be a way to give everyone what they wanted--give a nod to Sam/Jack, give a nod to the gen-ers, give a nod to the minor pairings folk. It would have been a pretty decent ending to the show, especially if they hadn't made so many people upset with Threads. *sighs*
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Bwah! Now we have two fish!
You know, overall, the one area that I can fault the writers is that they've become WAY too aware of fan opinion and let it color their writing. I've always said, I want to hermetically seal them up and completely in the dark as to fan opinion.
The whole 'wink-wink, nudge-nudge' thing they tend to want to do with regard to J/S strikes me as totally fan service and that kind of thing annoys the crap out of me.
It's not just the J/S hints that they feel they have to work in. I'm *really* not happy with Kindred 2 on Atlantis. I've not said anything about it, because I honestly don't want to harsh anyone's squee, but that's getting a little old, too. I had to do it over the J/S thing and now I have to do it over Kindred. In my mind, they totally jumped the shark in the way they brought Carson back. *Then* they have him shamelessly plug Hewlett's movie in his dialog? Made me want to go all stabbity on someone. Someone should be taken out and shot and it's probably Martin Gero.
Uh... sorry about that. Didn't mean to go all ranty on you. But I'm really glad that you've been able to solidify your opinions through this exchange! That's cool!
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They did? DAMN. Also: EPIC FAIL.
(see, in an ep like '200', that sort of thing is somewhat allowable. SOMEWHAT. dude. And little tiny fan-service moments? So not a problem with me. But honestly. they should know better. they are causing me to lose capital control.)
I'm still waiting to see about the Carson storyline, but CLONES. I HATES them. So, you're not harshing my squee. Someday, I'm going to do my deep and insightful analysis of why The Pretender sucked in season 4, and I'll give you a preview: MENTION OF A CLONE.
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Yup, when Carson's in the infirmary for the first time, he says, "No wonder I feel like a dog's breakfast." Ugh!
I can deal with fan service in something like '200'. It was sort of the whole theme of the ep, so it's fine. But I *don't* like it when it's done as part of a regular ep. Because, sure, it's squeeworthy for those on board with it, but it totally alienates those of us who aren't. And it makes us want to go rant at Joe Malozzi and tell him to STFU! (Mostly, I sort of like JM, but yeesh). It makes fandom feel like a war and one side won and the other side lost. It sucks, believe me. Or maybe I'm just bitter that nothing *I* care about has been fan-serviced. Whatever. It's just like those who screech the loudest get their cookie and everyone else gets stomped on. It makes us feel like we don't matter.
God, the CLONES! I don't know about The Pretender. I watched the first few seasons and then sort of lost interest. But it feels like *such* a lame thing. Michael can make freaking *clones* now? Not to mention somehow magically restore Carson's memory?
You know, I understand that they killed off the character in a stupid way. I really, really do. But again, the Carson fans squealed bloody murder over it and so they get their cookie. In an equally stupid and unbelievable way. So now they've got him in deep-freeze so they can trot him out once in a while. FAIL
They should have just fessed up (hey, we did a stupid thing. We're sorry), apologized and moved on. Because *this*? Does not make me happy. Of course, those of us who call bullshit on it are expected to just suck it up and continue to watch and support the show. Ick.
Er... guess that buzz wore off, Trout. I'm sorry to be ranting at you.
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Wait, you know what--I've decided that Daniel doesn't count. Because 1) He wasn't really dead and 2) Every sci-fi show can handle one or two or three characters that mysteriously comes back from the dead every once in a while.
Just...not when they have a flippin' body. Well, maybe then, but it has to be a really weird situat--
Oh, crap.
Anyway, I think with Carson they messed up. I'm still willing to give it a shot, but...yeah.
I do like JM, most of the time. I like the way he's snarky back to stupidity among the ranks, and I do enjoy reading his blog in general. And I'm *not* a long-term fan, so I'm not as well versed in all the politics of previous years, which makes it easier.
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