Considerations of a 1000 Point Army
Just taking a look at Vinay's recent post about a potential 1000 point army made me curious and I worked out a few of my own.
Khador Lists
Potential List 1: 1000 points
Epic Sorscha
Kommandant Irusk
Destroyer
Kodiak x2
Juggernaught
Berserker
Man-o-War Kovnik
Manhunter x2
Mechanics (+1)
Winterguard (+1) w/ Standard x2
This first list does what Khador does best. Jacks. Big, heavy, kick you ass up and down the street, jacks. The Two Kodiaks and the Juggernaught mean that there's no unit I can't take down violently in hand to hand. With Irusk in the field, one of them is going to be Superior. With Sorscha in the Field one of them is going to be Bonded. I actually worked it out yesterday -- With these casters, you could have a Kodiak charge 13" across rough terrain without penalty, for a grand total of 4 focus, 1 to upkeep Superiority, 3 for Boundless Charge. Of course, an 8" charge for 1 is also quite excellent.
The Berserker would be marshalled by the Kovnik and would rush. Since there's no risk of it exploding with a Marshal, it's a safe rush. If the Kovnik dies, one of my casters can then pick up the Autonomous Jack and run it like a bomb. Each Of the other casters would be a Kodiak, and Sorscha would get the Devastator, since it typically consumes less focus. (1/2 on your typical turn, and rarely 3). 4 focus on a Kodiak is something to worry about.
The whole army is Hand to Hand based, but with the armor on the Jacks, and the backup provided by two brutal squads of Winterguard, not to mention the stealth on the Manhunters means I have nothing to worry about from melee, and I should be covered in ranged well enough to do some damage that way if need be.
The Key issue with this list is that I'd need to buy another Winterguard box, plus another standard attachment (though it's worth having as many winterguard as you can justify when running Epic Sorscha), another manhunter, the Kovnik, another Kodiak, a Berserker, all of which would run... about $120. Not cheap, and practically an army unto itself. (Really, add a caster, that's be a decent group.)
Potential List 2: 1000 points
Kommandant Irusk
Kommander Soscha
Destroyer
Kodiak
Juggernaught x2
Manhunter x2
WidowMakers
Mechaniks (+2)
Greylords
Man-O-Wars (+1)
Wintergaurd (+4) w/ Standard
Wintergaurd Mortar
This first key advantage of this list is its cost. I'd only need to obtain a Manhunter, an additional Man-O-War and two more Winterguard troopers. If I count correctly, this includes all the models I own bar one, and would put no additional ones to waste. (The unused model would be Epic Sorscha) So this would run me about $30, maybe less.
It's a more balanced approach. Still heavy on the 'Jacks, but with the inclusion of a lot more infantry out to play utility. The Greylords have more uses than I can express -- their three spells can set up a lot of pain. Similarly, lots of hand to hand capable troops for Irusk's Feat, and lots of attacks to take advantage of Sorscha's.
This list would be more appropriate for playing against Vinay or a Shootier army, as I could advance most of my troops in Concealment which many of them can aquire an additonal bonus for (Manhunters, Widowmakers, Wintergaurd). +4 Defense is nothing to sneeze at when most of my army gets it. There's also a few easy substitutions to make the 12 extra points I'd need to run Epic Sorscha in this list, which could be superior -- the Elite Winterguard and Bonded Jack are both very good reasons to consider this.
Between the Winterguard, the Mortar and the Destroyer, I've got a decent handle of ranged troop control. Adding the Widowmakers means that no infantry can safely advance on me, and running jacks in pairs means I can pair them against more kinds of enemies without too much pain to me. Or at least, not so much damage that the mechanics can't keep a handle on it.
Is this an inferior list? No, probably not, in my opinion. It's got a good balance between the heavy (Destroyer, Juggernauts, Kodiak) the mediums (Manhunters, Man-o-Wars, Mortar), the lights (Winterguard, Widowmakers, Greylords) and the util (Mechanicks). It's an all-comers list. It wouldn't likely beat the Cryx that always give me trouble, but it would take on pretty much everything else I've faced without too much fluster.
Clearly, I'll be building this list first, since I can justify doing it.
Legion of Everblight Lists
Potential List 1: 998 Points
Lylyth
Vayl
Carnivean
Seraphs x2
Shredders x9
Harriers x6
Forsaken x4
Warmongers (+1)
A simpler list, and much more open to possibility than my Khador group, since I don't even have any painted Legion yet. Just the partly assembled box.
This is most obviously a Swarming group. It has almost no middle ground. The Carnivean, Seraphs, and Warmongers will take out anything on the heavy end, while the shedders and harriers will make any infantry or similar light units very dead. Between Lylth, Vayl and the Forsaken, handling all those beasts is a snap. And frankly, with a swarm this large, I could rush my Warlocks in to hand to hand and they'd be all but immune to damage.
The combination of Vayl and Lylth means two things -- Free Charges and out of turn killings. The trick is using Vayl's abilities to move your units out of turn (Dark Disciple and her Feat, Cat and Mouse) to get free strikes and a sickeningly quick rush, while Lylyth lets you preserve your fury for things like going Rabid and various Animus.
It's simple and vicious, backed up by plenty of hurtful spells and lots of tough units. Nothing in that group goes down in one hit.
Potential List 2: 999 Points
Lylyth
Thagrosh
Carniveans x2
Seraphs x2
Hariers x2
Shredders x6
Forsaken x3
Blighted Archers (+4)
Warmongers (+1)
This is perhaps a more sensible list, though less hilarious.
The shift towards less units with more power means less rushing. While 8 lesser beasts can certainly rush, they won't likely survive it. Here, they'd be cannon fodder. Rush them in until you can get the Archers and Warmongers up, then pin down the oppoent while you let the Carniveans and Forsaken rip up everything that remains. The advantage is that it's more capable of dealing with balanced groups, but it's also less likely to catch up if there's any big mistakes -- the tolerance for failure is lower even if it's probably more likely to win.
This group would have to be more cautious over all, but otherwise there's no particular strategy I can spill out. It might be worth while to drop the Warmongers And use those points to get Striders or more beasts. Similarly, you could go the other way and drop the Harriers and a shredder and squeeze in another 4 Warmongers.
I'm actually uninclined to push a Hordes group up to 1000 points before they release the second book, because while I like the Primal units quite a lot, there's probably a few more Lesser and Light Warbeasts and make more reason to take Blighted Nyss when the first supplement comes out.
Potential List 3: 495 Points
Lylyth
Carnivean
Shredders x8
Forsaken x2
Blighted Archers (+2)
This is a more likely direction for the moment. A 500 point group based on what I've already got.
It doesn't mean getting much; more shredders, forsaken, and Archers. It's a small swarming group, but it's also a smaller fight at 500 points. While it's less maneuverable than some of the 1000 point lists, the Archers make more sense here where their role for cover fire is a lost more pronounced. They'll essentially cover the front lines until the carnivean is ready to eat someone. Similarly, with only 9 beasts, Lylyth and teh Forsaken can handle the fury easily. Even another two shredders would be easy to handle.
It would be worth considering swapping out the Archers for Harriers, and maybe taking the Gobber Bellows Crew to fill the remaining points -- they'd serve the same role as the archers, only less agressively. Or, for a full 500, I could run 4 Harriers, 6 Shredders and no infantry at all -- just the Forsaken. That would rip trough a lot of infantry and it'd be more than enough to bog down bigger enemies when the facing a beast or jack heavy group. Also, inexpensive to build the group. :)
So, those are my ideas in terms of building up my existing groups for bigger games.
Thoughts, critiques? (I know most of you don't play, so don't sweat it)
Also, the modifications on my Legion models are comming along nicely. They're quite spiky. After some extra work, they should be delightfully unique. I still havn't decided on the colour scheme for them, though. I'm thinking about sticking pretty close to the origonal theme of bluish skins and then switching up the rocky back textures for something else. We will see.
That it for now,
- Kagirinai
Edit: Addendum
So, I was thinking about the plausible list I have for my Khadoran groups. The 2nd list there.
One of the things I've been aiming to do is end up with seperate, functional factions, because if there's anything I love, it's letting other people play too. Even from the start, my aim was to have two useable armies.
So I realized, with a plausible 1000 point army, could I break that cleanly in to two 500 point groups? It took some playing, but yes, I can.
Sorscha
Juggernaught
Destroyer
Manhunter
Widowmakers
Winterguard (+4)
w/ Standard
Irusk
Juggernaught
Kodiak
Manhunter
Winterguard Mortar
Mechanics (+2)
Greylords
Man o Wars (+1)
Now is this a fair match up? Maybe, maybe not. I think Sorschas group is perhaps more capable here. The widowmakers would take out the mortar and mechaniks pretty quick, probably the greylords too. However, while Irusk might do better with more Infantry for his feat, between the Manhunter and Man-o-wars, he should be able to use it just fine.
I'll play with these lists some more and see what I can come up with. Maybe I'll be bringing out 1500 points of Khador and legion to a boardgame meet up somewhere so some people can give the game a shot.
Khador Lists
Potential List 1: 1000 points
Epic Sorscha
Kommandant Irusk
Destroyer
Kodiak x2
Juggernaught
Berserker
Man-o-War Kovnik
Manhunter x2
Mechanics (+1)
Winterguard (+1) w/ Standard x2
This first list does what Khador does best. Jacks. Big, heavy, kick you ass up and down the street, jacks. The Two Kodiaks and the Juggernaught mean that there's no unit I can't take down violently in hand to hand. With Irusk in the field, one of them is going to be Superior. With Sorscha in the Field one of them is going to be Bonded. I actually worked it out yesterday -- With these casters, you could have a Kodiak charge 13" across rough terrain without penalty, for a grand total of 4 focus, 1 to upkeep Superiority, 3 for Boundless Charge. Of course, an 8" charge for 1 is also quite excellent.
The Berserker would be marshalled by the Kovnik and would rush. Since there's no risk of it exploding with a Marshal, it's a safe rush. If the Kovnik dies, one of my casters can then pick up the Autonomous Jack and run it like a bomb. Each Of the other casters would be a Kodiak, and Sorscha would get the Devastator, since it typically consumes less focus. (1/2 on your typical turn, and rarely 3). 4 focus on a Kodiak is something to worry about.
The whole army is Hand to Hand based, but with the armor on the Jacks, and the backup provided by two brutal squads of Winterguard, not to mention the stealth on the Manhunters means I have nothing to worry about from melee, and I should be covered in ranged well enough to do some damage that way if need be.
The Key issue with this list is that I'd need to buy another Winterguard box, plus another standard attachment (though it's worth having as many winterguard as you can justify when running Epic Sorscha), another manhunter, the Kovnik, another Kodiak, a Berserker, all of which would run... about $120. Not cheap, and practically an army unto itself. (Really, add a caster, that's be a decent group.)
Potential List 2: 1000 points
Kommandant Irusk
Kommander Soscha
Destroyer
Kodiak
Juggernaught x2
Manhunter x2
WidowMakers
Mechaniks (+2)
Greylords
Man-O-Wars (+1)
Wintergaurd (+4) w/ Standard
Wintergaurd Mortar
This first key advantage of this list is its cost. I'd only need to obtain a Manhunter, an additional Man-O-War and two more Winterguard troopers. If I count correctly, this includes all the models I own bar one, and would put no additional ones to waste. (The unused model would be Epic Sorscha) So this would run me about $30, maybe less.
It's a more balanced approach. Still heavy on the 'Jacks, but with the inclusion of a lot more infantry out to play utility. The Greylords have more uses than I can express -- their three spells can set up a lot of pain. Similarly, lots of hand to hand capable troops for Irusk's Feat, and lots of attacks to take advantage of Sorscha's.
This list would be more appropriate for playing against Vinay or a Shootier army, as I could advance most of my troops in Concealment which many of them can aquire an additonal bonus for (Manhunters, Widowmakers, Wintergaurd). +4 Defense is nothing to sneeze at when most of my army gets it. There's also a few easy substitutions to make the 12 extra points I'd need to run Epic Sorscha in this list, which could be superior -- the Elite Winterguard and Bonded Jack are both very good reasons to consider this.
Between the Winterguard, the Mortar and the Destroyer, I've got a decent handle of ranged troop control. Adding the Widowmakers means that no infantry can safely advance on me, and running jacks in pairs means I can pair them against more kinds of enemies without too much pain to me. Or at least, not so much damage that the mechanics can't keep a handle on it.
Is this an inferior list? No, probably not, in my opinion. It's got a good balance between the heavy (Destroyer, Juggernauts, Kodiak) the mediums (Manhunters, Man-o-Wars, Mortar), the lights (Winterguard, Widowmakers, Greylords) and the util (Mechanicks). It's an all-comers list. It wouldn't likely beat the Cryx that always give me trouble, but it would take on pretty much everything else I've faced without too much fluster.
Clearly, I'll be building this list first, since I can justify doing it.
Legion of Everblight Lists
Potential List 1: 998 Points
Lylyth
Vayl
Carnivean
Seraphs x2
Shredders x9
Harriers x6
Forsaken x4
Warmongers (+1)
A simpler list, and much more open to possibility than my Khador group, since I don't even have any painted Legion yet. Just the partly assembled box.
This is most obviously a Swarming group. It has almost no middle ground. The Carnivean, Seraphs, and Warmongers will take out anything on the heavy end, while the shedders and harriers will make any infantry or similar light units very dead. Between Lylth, Vayl and the Forsaken, handling all those beasts is a snap. And frankly, with a swarm this large, I could rush my Warlocks in to hand to hand and they'd be all but immune to damage.
The combination of Vayl and Lylth means two things -- Free Charges and out of turn killings. The trick is using Vayl's abilities to move your units out of turn (Dark Disciple and her Feat, Cat and Mouse) to get free strikes and a sickeningly quick rush, while Lylyth lets you preserve your fury for things like going Rabid and various Animus.
It's simple and vicious, backed up by plenty of hurtful spells and lots of tough units. Nothing in that group goes down in one hit.
Potential List 2: 999 Points
Lylyth
Thagrosh
Carniveans x2
Seraphs x2
Hariers x2
Shredders x6
Forsaken x3
Blighted Archers (+4)
Warmongers (+1)
This is perhaps a more sensible list, though less hilarious.
The shift towards less units with more power means less rushing. While 8 lesser beasts can certainly rush, they won't likely survive it. Here, they'd be cannon fodder. Rush them in until you can get the Archers and Warmongers up, then pin down the oppoent while you let the Carniveans and Forsaken rip up everything that remains. The advantage is that it's more capable of dealing with balanced groups, but it's also less likely to catch up if there's any big mistakes -- the tolerance for failure is lower even if it's probably more likely to win.
This group would have to be more cautious over all, but otherwise there's no particular strategy I can spill out. It might be worth while to drop the Warmongers And use those points to get Striders or more beasts. Similarly, you could go the other way and drop the Harriers and a shredder and squeeze in another 4 Warmongers.
I'm actually uninclined to push a Hordes group up to 1000 points before they release the second book, because while I like the Primal units quite a lot, there's probably a few more Lesser and Light Warbeasts and make more reason to take Blighted Nyss when the first supplement comes out.
Potential List 3: 495 Points
Lylyth
Carnivean
Shredders x8
Forsaken x2
Blighted Archers (+2)
This is a more likely direction for the moment. A 500 point group based on what I've already got.
It doesn't mean getting much; more shredders, forsaken, and Archers. It's a small swarming group, but it's also a smaller fight at 500 points. While it's less maneuverable than some of the 1000 point lists, the Archers make more sense here where their role for cover fire is a lost more pronounced. They'll essentially cover the front lines until the carnivean is ready to eat someone. Similarly, with only 9 beasts, Lylyth and teh Forsaken can handle the fury easily. Even another two shredders would be easy to handle.
It would be worth considering swapping out the Archers for Harriers, and maybe taking the Gobber Bellows Crew to fill the remaining points -- they'd serve the same role as the archers, only less agressively. Or, for a full 500, I could run 4 Harriers, 6 Shredders and no infantry at all -- just the Forsaken. That would rip trough a lot of infantry and it'd be more than enough to bog down bigger enemies when the facing a beast or jack heavy group. Also, inexpensive to build the group. :)
So, those are my ideas in terms of building up my existing groups for bigger games.
Thoughts, critiques? (I know most of you don't play, so don't sweat it)
Also, the modifications on my Legion models are comming along nicely. They're quite spiky. After some extra work, they should be delightfully unique. I still havn't decided on the colour scheme for them, though. I'm thinking about sticking pretty close to the origonal theme of bluish skins and then switching up the rocky back textures for something else. We will see.
That it for now,
- Kagirinai
Edit: Addendum
So, I was thinking about the plausible list I have for my Khadoran groups. The 2nd list there.
One of the things I've been aiming to do is end up with seperate, functional factions, because if there's anything I love, it's letting other people play too. Even from the start, my aim was to have two useable armies.
So I realized, with a plausible 1000 point army, could I break that cleanly in to two 500 point groups? It took some playing, but yes, I can.
Sorscha
Juggernaught
Destroyer
Manhunter
Widowmakers
Winterguard (+4)
w/ Standard
Irusk
Juggernaught
Kodiak
Manhunter
Winterguard Mortar
Mechanics (+2)
Greylords
Man o Wars (+1)
Now is this a fair match up? Maybe, maybe not. I think Sorschas group is perhaps more capable here. The widowmakers would take out the mortar and mechaniks pretty quick, probably the greylords too. However, while Irusk might do better with more Infantry for his feat, between the Manhunter and Man-o-wars, he should be able to use it just fine.
I'll play with these lists some more and see what I can come up with. Maybe I'll be bringing out 1500 points of Khador and legion to a boardgame meet up somewhere so some people can give the game a shot.