Nothing like some good old-fashioned POTC meta.
This is a very meta-ish (and spoiler-ish) post, centred around the end of the Will/Elizabeth arc in AWE. I've made a couple of posts in other forums about it and decided to make a big one here to collect everything I know - and hopefully it'll be helpful to some other people. I've included my own thoughts, and some quotes from Ted and Terry on the subject.
The film ended on a very bittersweet note. The impression I got was that Will was now Captain of the Flying Dutchman (CotFD) for all eternity. He and Elizabeth would only meet once every 10 years for the rest of their lives (or the rest of his undead-life, in Will's case). They loved each other, and could have children (with exact ten-year age-gaps...) but were forced to be parted. Some day Elizabeth would die, and maybe Will would ferry her to the next world, or maybe he'd show up and find her no longer waiting for him, and become like Davy Jones.
I both hated and loved that ending at the same time. Pirates has always challenged the normal Disney conventions (talk about breaking the 'no blood rule' - we even saw a gunshot to the head in AWE), and the whole movie seemed to be leading up to this. Ever since the "touch of destiny" line in DMC I'd had a feeling that Will and Elizabeth would not end happily ever after. Their rushed and fleeting (and somewhat adorable) wedding scene during the battle felt just that - fleeting, something that would not last. I loved that the movie seemed to close it in a realistic way. However at the same time I felt cheated. Will's love for Elizabeth has been the driving force of all the movies in the trilogy, and to have them parted seems almost as though Will's entire quest (which started with: "We must save her!") has been a failure.
...But. There was one thing about this ending that was bugging me above all.
The green flash in the post-credits scene.
It was already established in the film that the green flash showed a soul returning to life. All characters were very clear on this point. The green flash was able to resurrect Jack as a complete, living, breathing man, bearing no scars of his brush with the Kraken.
Whenever the Dutchman surfaced from the waves before in the trilogy, there were no flashes. During the sea battles, by the Isla Cruces - one moment the sea would be calm, and the next the ship would be there. No green flashes. In fact the only other green flash we'd seen with a surfacing ship in the movie did not take place upon the Dutchman, but on the small Singapore junk they borrowed to rescue Jack.
So why was there a green flash in that final scene, when the Dutchman surfaced?
There's only one logical conclusion: a soul was returning to life.
I came online and found others were thinking along the same lines as me. And eventually I was directed to the Wordplayer.com forums - the official website of Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio. Currently the website is down until Monday, but at the time both writers were on it, and actively posting about AWE, answering questions from fans.
Judging from their messages, both writers were confused by all the confusion - why was everyone was so bewildered over the Davy Jones curse? One thing became apparent: the writers hadn't seen the final movie yet. Later they returned to the forums after seeing it, and judging from their answers... several scenes were cut, or trimmed down.
It seems in the original film it was explicit that Will's curse was broken/would be broken if his love remained true. This is apparently supported by certain novelisations of the film. I suspect in the original film this was clarified by some more one-on-one character conversations, which were probably cut to save time by editors who thought there was nothing important in them. I don't really blame them for that - it was long enough as it was. It was just bad luck that what they cut made the ending very confusing.
According to the writers, the curse of Davy Jones was self-inflicted. He was only supposed to serve for 10 years. However when he returned and found Calypso not waiting for him, he was so angry he carved out his heart, and abandoned his task of ferrying souls. His own actions caused him to 'turn tentacle', and resulted in him sailing for all eternity.
By contrast, Will returned home to find Elizabeth had remained true to him. And because of that? He didn't do anything stupid. He didn't have to curse the task he was given, and sail off angrily into the sunset to be bitter forever more. There was a green flash, and... he was free.
It's unclear as to what happens to his heart, but perhaps it is somehow returned to him by the magic of the flash, just as Jack bore no scars from his encounter with the Kraken (no teeth marks, no skin dissolved from stomach acid... the list goes on). Or perhaps they simply cut him open and stick it in. The writers also stated in the forums it's left deliberately ambiguous as to who takes over from Will. Is it Bootstrap? Is it someone new? Is the post of CotFD now obsolete? Both these questions, the issue of the heart and of the new CotFD, are left to the fans to decide the answers. Plenty of prospects for excellent fanfiction, in my mind - personally I think it'd be great if somehow Norrington took over from Will.
Now, some fans have discounted this ending. They've said that since the scenes were cut from the movie they're no longer canon. The true ending is the bittersweet one.
But. Vital clues are still in the movie. Jones often states that it was Calypso who ruined him and caused his curse - implying it was nothing to do with his post as CotFD. This is true - if she had stayed faithful to him, then the curse would have been broken. There's nothing in the CotFD job description that states he must serve for eternity, or for a certain number of years past ten - only that "the Dutchman must have a captain." As long as someone can take the CotFD's place after his ten years are up, and as long as there's a true love waiting for him, it seems he's free to go.
And the key clue is the green flash. In my mind there's no getting around that, the film explicitly states that it means a soul is returning from the dead. You could argue it's not Will but another soul, but why make things complicated? This is the reward he and Elizabeth finally receive for remaining faithful against all the odds. Elizabeth is a clear parallel to Calypso - it was 'in Calypso's nature' to be flighty, but whilst Elizabeth might have longed for freedom she resisted it for ten years because of her love. This establishes the couple as soulmates, and their love as the defining force of the trilogy. They did what Jones and Calypso could not.
So it is my personal belief that the canon ending is 'the happy one'. An element of the realistic bittersweet still remains, as they both had to wait for a decade to be happy. But the post-credits scene shows Will returning home through the green flash, and so returning to life. He and Elizabeth are now free to settle down and raise their child, or to go off on their various adventures again. Who knows where fanfiction could take them?
I'll close with some key quotes from the writers on the forums, to drive my point home. Firstly, here's a conversation Terry had with another user:
curious mate: Majorly confused about several plot points ... but so I can be clear ... this means Will was forbidden to see Liz during 10 years, right?
And she was true to him and then the green flash means the curse was broken (although it is not made clear in the movie).
But that was your narrative intention?
Terry: I don't know that I would say, "forbidden." There might be some story to be told where Elizabeth manages to make a trip to the land of the dead, with the help of someone, etc., etc., to find Will, etc.
But the basic requirement is that Will agrees captain the Flying Dutchmen (in return for what the film reveals) and that he can step on land but once every ten years, and that at any time, if he finds a love that is true (this is part of the original Flying Dutchman opera by the way) then his attachment to the ship is broken.
As any of you who are familiar with the original Flying Dutchman story will know, what Terry says is true. And therefore this ties in with AWE - Elizabeth was true to Will for a decade, he returned to land, and as a result the curse is broken. What Terry says also implies that even if Elizabeth hadn't been waiting for Will ten years later, she could simply have 'been true' and broken the curse in another ten years (providing Will didn't go mad with rage and abandon his task after the first decade was a failure).
And finally, here's what Ted had to say on the subject:
Ted Elliott: That green flash was what Terry was referring to when he said it was possible, but very difficult, to figure out from the movie that the curse was broken.
AWE definitely did not end as clearly as one would have liked. It seems there were errors of judgement made in the editing-room in their hurry to cut down the three hour epic, and hopefully these will be remedied on the DVD. But the fact of the matter is, the green flash proves (to me at least) beyond all doubt that Will is alive, well, and with Elizabeth once more.
Please comment with your own opinions, and correct me if I've made any mistakes, or give me new information to add. I've as of yet only seen the movie twice, so I'm well aware there could be stuff I'm missing, or getting plain wrong. :D
***
Edit 29th May: There's some interesting discussion surrounding this going on in the comments, so please feel free to join in or contribute! The other reason for this edit is that certain posts are being deleted from the Wordplayer forums, and so I'm going to copy and paste all the relevant information I can find here for future reference, just in case.
Terry on Friday, 18 May 2007, at 1:03 a.m:
Lots of interesting and thought-provoking points. Fun to read.
But to clarify one point: Davy Jones, as Captain of the Flying Dutchman, is cursed to set foot on land only once every ten years ... unless he finds a love that is true to him. Hopefully that rule will be made more clear in the third film.
If the person Jones had been in love with had been true, and waited for him, and stayed in love with him for ten years, upon his return to land his curse would have been lifted. That's a big part of the reason why Jones is so bitter and cruel. He had a chance to lead a normal life ... but his lover was fickle.
Just thought I'd throw that out there, since most the arguing is over rules that are incorrect to the film.
Terry on Friday, 18 May 2007, at 11:30 a.m.:
This is a rule that is in place during the second movie and applies to Davy Jones. It's a further clarification for situations in Dead Man's Chest. Originally the point was designed to be made more strongly in DMC, but it got cut in editing.
Terry on Tuesday, 22 May 2007, at 10:44 a.m:
>> The sexist accusation plays out as follows. The message to young women:
>> girls you have to remain chaste/faithful, and true to your man no matter
>> what. Otherwise, he'll turn into an ugly-nasty-mean-fish face monster.
Ah, got it. Problem with that is that it's just plain inaccurate to the story.
We made it quite clear in the story that Jones is a fish-face because he stopped doing the job he agreed to do.
Will chooses to take on that job. He makes a deal. That deal is he has to Captain the Flying Dutchman, and perform those duties. It's only if Will chooses to abandon that job (which is what Davy Jones did) that he corrupts himself and his person.
Will could choose to abandon the job for any reason, at any time. Yes, Jones chose to abandon it over Calypso. Will does not have to (and wouldn't) make that same choice.
Elizabeth has the power to free Will, but not the power to corrupt him.
Terry on Friday, 25 May 2007, at 12:39 p.m.:
>> "I didn't like the fact that she ended up on an island waiting for Will."
This critcism is fairly common, and it makes absolutely no sense. It is the equivalent of saying,
"I didn't like that Jack ending up in a small rowboat for the rest of his life."
Does it reflect some sort of odd, perhaps sexist, bias -- on the part of viewers? If I was watching the film, I'd say to myself, "Ah, so Elizabeth ends up Pirate King, and Will sails off to his own sort of purgatory. Clever, now they can write all sorts of stories and adventures Elizabeth has in that ten year period, before he returns."
C'mon. Everyone assumes that there will be more stories for Jack. Even Will could have adventures in his realm -- and there's nothing to say he doesn't come up with some way around the rules. And Elizabeth has not given up her title of Pirate King, last I checked.
Maybe it all has to wait until the first novel comes out, 'Elizabeth: My Adventures as Pirate King."
More quotes will be added to the above block as I find them.
...And for the sake of humour, I feel this image adequately sums up the reaction of the fans to these scenes being cut from the final movie. ;D
***
Edit 30th May: A lot of comment discussion has been focusing on the second green flash - the green flash that occurs when Will leaves Elizabeth on the beach at the end of the movie. Various people had various theories on what that flash was, the most popular being either someone was brought back to life (the crew, or Norrington), or that the flash actually just shows transporting between worlds, and works both ways. However I just found this quote from Ted Elliott:
Ted Elliott on Tuesday, 29 May 2007, at 11:04 a.m:
>>> If it is to be implied that the curse is broken because of the green flash when Will returns to Elizabeth after ten years, then why was there also a green flash when he left her?
Someone correctly observed that there were a lot of members of Jones' crew who were suddenly free from their service to the Dutchman. Do you think all of them made the same choice Bootstrap did?
I also found the quote where Terry states that who is now CotFD (after Will is freed) is meant to be ambiguous:
Terry on Friday, 25 May 2007, at 12:57 p.m.:
>>> If it's true that Will & Liz have a true love, and that because of their love
>>> Will is released from the curse, then who is the next Captain of the
>>> Flying Dutchman? Because it's stated over and over again in the movie
>>> that "the Flying Dutchman must ALWAYS have a Captain."
>>> So I'm confused.
I'm amazed that you are confused. The answer seems obvious: 'someone other than Will, who hasn't been picked yet.'
I understand you don't know who it might be. Probably even Calypso might not know.
The United States must always have a President. Not knowing who the next President might be should not cause you confusion in the matter.
So hopefully those clear some things up. :)
The film ended on a very bittersweet note. The impression I got was that Will was now Captain of the Flying Dutchman (CotFD) for all eternity. He and Elizabeth would only meet once every 10 years for the rest of their lives (or the rest of his undead-life, in Will's case). They loved each other, and could have children (with exact ten-year age-gaps...) but were forced to be parted. Some day Elizabeth would die, and maybe Will would ferry her to the next world, or maybe he'd show up and find her no longer waiting for him, and become like Davy Jones.
I both hated and loved that ending at the same time. Pirates has always challenged the normal Disney conventions (talk about breaking the 'no blood rule' - we even saw a gunshot to the head in AWE), and the whole movie seemed to be leading up to this. Ever since the "touch of destiny" line in DMC I'd had a feeling that Will and Elizabeth would not end happily ever after. Their rushed and fleeting (and somewhat adorable) wedding scene during the battle felt just that - fleeting, something that would not last. I loved that the movie seemed to close it in a realistic way. However at the same time I felt cheated. Will's love for Elizabeth has been the driving force of all the movies in the trilogy, and to have them parted seems almost as though Will's entire quest (which started with: "We must save her!") has been a failure.
...But. There was one thing about this ending that was bugging me above all.
The green flash in the post-credits scene.
It was already established in the film that the green flash showed a soul returning to life. All characters were very clear on this point. The green flash was able to resurrect Jack as a complete, living, breathing man, bearing no scars of his brush with the Kraken.
Whenever the Dutchman surfaced from the waves before in the trilogy, there were no flashes. During the sea battles, by the Isla Cruces - one moment the sea would be calm, and the next the ship would be there. No green flashes. In fact the only other green flash we'd seen with a surfacing ship in the movie did not take place upon the Dutchman, but on the small Singapore junk they borrowed to rescue Jack.
So why was there a green flash in that final scene, when the Dutchman surfaced?
There's only one logical conclusion: a soul was returning to life.
I came online and found others were thinking along the same lines as me. And eventually I was directed to the Wordplayer.com forums - the official website of Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio. Currently the website is down until Monday, but at the time both writers were on it, and actively posting about AWE, answering questions from fans.
Judging from their messages, both writers were confused by all the confusion - why was everyone was so bewildered over the Davy Jones curse? One thing became apparent: the writers hadn't seen the final movie yet. Later they returned to the forums after seeing it, and judging from their answers... several scenes were cut, or trimmed down.
It seems in the original film it was explicit that Will's curse was broken/would be broken if his love remained true. This is apparently supported by certain novelisations of the film. I suspect in the original film this was clarified by some more one-on-one character conversations, which were probably cut to save time by editors who thought there was nothing important in them. I don't really blame them for that - it was long enough as it was. It was just bad luck that what they cut made the ending very confusing.
According to the writers, the curse of Davy Jones was self-inflicted. He was only supposed to serve for 10 years. However when he returned and found Calypso not waiting for him, he was so angry he carved out his heart, and abandoned his task of ferrying souls. His own actions caused him to 'turn tentacle', and resulted in him sailing for all eternity.
By contrast, Will returned home to find Elizabeth had remained true to him. And because of that? He didn't do anything stupid. He didn't have to curse the task he was given, and sail off angrily into the sunset to be bitter forever more. There was a green flash, and... he was free.
It's unclear as to what happens to his heart, but perhaps it is somehow returned to him by the magic of the flash, just as Jack bore no scars from his encounter with the Kraken (no teeth marks, no skin dissolved from stomach acid... the list goes on). Or perhaps they simply cut him open and stick it in. The writers also stated in the forums it's left deliberately ambiguous as to who takes over from Will. Is it Bootstrap? Is it someone new? Is the post of CotFD now obsolete? Both these questions, the issue of the heart and of the new CotFD, are left to the fans to decide the answers. Plenty of prospects for excellent fanfiction, in my mind - personally I think it'd be great if somehow Norrington took over from Will.
Now, some fans have discounted this ending. They've said that since the scenes were cut from the movie they're no longer canon. The true ending is the bittersweet one.
But. Vital clues are still in the movie. Jones often states that it was Calypso who ruined him and caused his curse - implying it was nothing to do with his post as CotFD. This is true - if she had stayed faithful to him, then the curse would have been broken. There's nothing in the CotFD job description that states he must serve for eternity, or for a certain number of years past ten - only that "the Dutchman must have a captain." As long as someone can take the CotFD's place after his ten years are up, and as long as there's a true love waiting for him, it seems he's free to go.
And the key clue is the green flash. In my mind there's no getting around that, the film explicitly states that it means a soul is returning from the dead. You could argue it's not Will but another soul, but why make things complicated? This is the reward he and Elizabeth finally receive for remaining faithful against all the odds. Elizabeth is a clear parallel to Calypso - it was 'in Calypso's nature' to be flighty, but whilst Elizabeth might have longed for freedom she resisted it for ten years because of her love. This establishes the couple as soulmates, and their love as the defining force of the trilogy. They did what Jones and Calypso could not.
So it is my personal belief that the canon ending is 'the happy one'. An element of the realistic bittersweet still remains, as they both had to wait for a decade to be happy. But the post-credits scene shows Will returning home through the green flash, and so returning to life. He and Elizabeth are now free to settle down and raise their child, or to go off on their various adventures again. Who knows where fanfiction could take them?
I'll close with some key quotes from the writers on the forums, to drive my point home. Firstly, here's a conversation Terry had with another user:
curious mate: Majorly confused about several plot points ... but so I can be clear ... this means Will was forbidden to see Liz during 10 years, right?
And she was true to him and then the green flash means the curse was broken (although it is not made clear in the movie).
But that was your narrative intention?
Terry: I don't know that I would say, "forbidden." There might be some story to be told where Elizabeth manages to make a trip to the land of the dead, with the help of someone, etc., etc., to find Will, etc.
But the basic requirement is that Will agrees captain the Flying Dutchmen (in return for what the film reveals) and that he can step on land but once every ten years, and that at any time, if he finds a love that is true (this is part of the original Flying Dutchman opera by the way) then his attachment to the ship is broken.
As any of you who are familiar with the original Flying Dutchman story will know, what Terry says is true. And therefore this ties in with AWE - Elizabeth was true to Will for a decade, he returned to land, and as a result the curse is broken. What Terry says also implies that even if Elizabeth hadn't been waiting for Will ten years later, she could simply have 'been true' and broken the curse in another ten years (providing Will didn't go mad with rage and abandon his task after the first decade was a failure).
And finally, here's what Ted had to say on the subject:
Ted Elliott: That green flash was what Terry was referring to when he said it was possible, but very difficult, to figure out from the movie that the curse was broken.
AWE definitely did not end as clearly as one would have liked. It seems there were errors of judgement made in the editing-room in their hurry to cut down the three hour epic, and hopefully these will be remedied on the DVD. But the fact of the matter is, the green flash proves (to me at least) beyond all doubt that Will is alive, well, and with Elizabeth once more.
Please comment with your own opinions, and correct me if I've made any mistakes, or give me new information to add. I've as of yet only seen the movie twice, so I'm well aware there could be stuff I'm missing, or getting plain wrong. :D
***
Edit 29th May: There's some interesting discussion surrounding this going on in the comments, so please feel free to join in or contribute! The other reason for this edit is that certain posts are being deleted from the Wordplayer forums, and so I'm going to copy and paste all the relevant information I can find here for future reference, just in case.
Terry on Friday, 18 May 2007, at 1:03 a.m:
Lots of interesting and thought-provoking points. Fun to read.
But to clarify one point: Davy Jones, as Captain of the Flying Dutchman, is cursed to set foot on land only once every ten years ... unless he finds a love that is true to him. Hopefully that rule will be made more clear in the third film.
If the person Jones had been in love with had been true, and waited for him, and stayed in love with him for ten years, upon his return to land his curse would have been lifted. That's a big part of the reason why Jones is so bitter and cruel. He had a chance to lead a normal life ... but his lover was fickle.
Just thought I'd throw that out there, since most the arguing is over rules that are incorrect to the film.
Terry on Friday, 18 May 2007, at 11:30 a.m.:
This is a rule that is in place during the second movie and applies to Davy Jones. It's a further clarification for situations in Dead Man's Chest. Originally the point was designed to be made more strongly in DMC, but it got cut in editing.
Terry on Tuesday, 22 May 2007, at 10:44 a.m:
>> The sexist accusation plays out as follows. The message to young women:
>> girls you have to remain chaste/faithful, and true to your man no matter
>> what. Otherwise, he'll turn into an ugly-nasty-mean-fish face monster.
Ah, got it. Problem with that is that it's just plain inaccurate to the story.
We made it quite clear in the story that Jones is a fish-face because he stopped doing the job he agreed to do.
Will chooses to take on that job. He makes a deal. That deal is he has to Captain the Flying Dutchman, and perform those duties. It's only if Will chooses to abandon that job (which is what Davy Jones did) that he corrupts himself and his person.
Will could choose to abandon the job for any reason, at any time. Yes, Jones chose to abandon it over Calypso. Will does not have to (and wouldn't) make that same choice.
Elizabeth has the power to free Will, but not the power to corrupt him.
Terry on Friday, 25 May 2007, at 12:39 p.m.:
>> "I didn't like the fact that she ended up on an island waiting for Will."
This critcism is fairly common, and it makes absolutely no sense. It is the equivalent of saying,
"I didn't like that Jack ending up in a small rowboat for the rest of his life."
Does it reflect some sort of odd, perhaps sexist, bias -- on the part of viewers? If I was watching the film, I'd say to myself, "Ah, so Elizabeth ends up Pirate King, and Will sails off to his own sort of purgatory. Clever, now they can write all sorts of stories and adventures Elizabeth has in that ten year period, before he returns."
C'mon. Everyone assumes that there will be more stories for Jack. Even Will could have adventures in his realm -- and there's nothing to say he doesn't come up with some way around the rules. And Elizabeth has not given up her title of Pirate King, last I checked.
Maybe it all has to wait until the first novel comes out, 'Elizabeth: My Adventures as Pirate King."
More quotes will be added to the above block as I find them.
...And for the sake of humour, I feel this image adequately sums up the reaction of the fans to these scenes being cut from the final movie. ;D
***
Edit 30th May: A lot of comment discussion has been focusing on the second green flash - the green flash that occurs when Will leaves Elizabeth on the beach at the end of the movie. Various people had various theories on what that flash was, the most popular being either someone was brought back to life (the crew, or Norrington), or that the flash actually just shows transporting between worlds, and works both ways. However I just found this quote from Ted Elliott:
Ted Elliott on Tuesday, 29 May 2007, at 11:04 a.m:
>>> If it is to be implied that the curse is broken because of the green flash when Will returns to Elizabeth after ten years, then why was there also a green flash when he left her?
Someone correctly observed that there were a lot of members of Jones' crew who were suddenly free from their service to the Dutchman. Do you think all of them made the same choice Bootstrap did?
I also found the quote where Terry states that who is now CotFD (after Will is freed) is meant to be ambiguous:
Terry on Friday, 25 May 2007, at 12:57 p.m.:
>>> If it's true that Will & Liz have a true love, and that because of their love
>>> Will is released from the curse, then who is the next Captain of the
>>> Flying Dutchman? Because it's stated over and over again in the movie
>>> that "the Flying Dutchman must ALWAYS have a Captain."
>>> So I'm confused.
I'm amazed that you are confused. The answer seems obvious: 'someone other than Will, who hasn't been picked yet.'
I understand you don't know who it might be. Probably even Calypso might not know.
The United States must always have a President. Not knowing who the next President might be should not cause you confusion in the matter.
So hopefully those clear some things up. :)