In which the author makes a Poll bound to offend somebody, on a topic no one wants to discuss

[jonathankaplan]

I first saw the miniseries Roots when it originally aired.
I next saw the miniseries Roots last week.
I have always thought the End does NOT justify the means.

Comments

[prock]

Part of the problem with the Africa questions is that they conflate class with race. When I lived in western Africa, I had a great time. I suspect that on a relative basis, some western countries in Africa are much better for black people than the US. Senegal leaps to mind.

I'm not at all sure what your point is. It looks like you are doing a lot of painting with black oil on a white canvas here. Maybe you should try charcoal on newsprint?

[jonathankaplan]

I don't know that I have a point. But here are a few thoughts that were buzzing around in my head, and I wanted some feedback

[prock]

1) I think it is quite likely that Black Americans are better off where they are now than where they would have been if White Euro/Americans hadn't perpetuated the horrific crime of slavery upon them.

I suspect you don't have a clear view of the modern social demographics of blacks in America, or in a peaceful West African nation like Senegal. It kind of sounds like you're putting too much of a premium money and not enough on liberty.

In the US, black unemployment rates are double that of whites. Unfortunately, the definition of unemployment is difficult to compare between countries, but it is certainly much higher in Senegal.

In Senegal, 54% of the people live in poverty. In the US about 25% of blacks live in poverty.

The incarceration rate of blacks is six times that of whites, and double that of Apartheid era South Africa..

The US incarceration rate of Blacks is 46 times that of Senegal. In the US, thirty percent of black men without a college education-and sixty percent of black men without a high school degree-had been

[prock]

I should add that the economies of countries like Senegal would also be better off if it weren't for European imperialism.

[jonathankaplan]

That is true, but how true, and who can quantify that unreality?
Europe had the power, and it was too much to expect a reality where they didn't use it. People who think there "shouldn't have been" colonial imperialism are right, but so what? Power gets used, and the white Europeans, barbarians all, had too much power to sit on their hands. People are people, after all.

[prock]

That is true, but how true, and who can quantify that unreality?

That sounds like a reasonable response to many of these "What If?" questions. But if you really think these things are beyond reasoning about, maybe it's a bit silly to proclaim things like:

"I think it is quite likely that Black Americans are better off where they are now than where they would have been if White Euro/Americans hadn't perpetuated the horrific crime of slavery upon them."

[jonathankaplan]

Perhaps.
But I'll point out that my argument doesn't relies considerably less on "what if" than the current reality, and where we are now. The counter arguments need "what if(s)" galore. My argument just points out that American society has progressed very far towards egalitarian principles. It is hard to argue much with that statement, looking at my perspectives.

Most people who read here are probability analyzers, and the nature of that world is, "often wrong, but less than others, hopefully".
To me, the silly part of this topic is the not talking about it at all.
Hence, this thread.

But in many ways, I agree.

[jonathankaplan]

Yes, it does

[prock]

I always think of the long run.

That's all well and good. But you were commenting on how things are now. Currently, things are very bleak for black Americans. In the future things may change for the better, but IIRC, you don't seem to have high hopes for America, so it's difficult to predict.

If I were a black man, and could pick any first world nation to live in, the US would be at (or near) the bottom of the list.

[jonathankaplan]

I think using the "ends/means" framework has been too confusing.
Now is just a continuum point from before to after. I see plenty of "befores" that were much more heinous than "now", and a steady trend away from that heinous culture. It is always Now, in another sense. The long run can be touched Now. I don't think that things are "very bleak for black Americans", or at least, hardly any bleaker than they are for any American (and if you took the drug "war" out of the equation, I'd make that statement stronger).
Difficult to predict is right.

Fair enough on that last part. I'll see how my granddaughter feels about it when she is old enough to live on her own. By then, I will probably be encouraging her to go elsewhere, also.

Thanks, Andrew.