In which the author makes a Poll bound to offend somebody, on a topic no one wants to discuss

[jonathankaplan]

I first saw the miniseries Roots when it originally aired.
I next saw the miniseries Roots last week.
I have always thought the End does NOT justify the means.

Comments

[jonathankaplan]

I don't know that I have a point. But here are a few thoughts that were buzzing around in my head, and I wanted some feedback.

1) I think it is quite likely that Black Americans are better off where they are now than where they would have been if White Euro/Americans hadn't perpetuated the horrific crime of slavery upon them. I could easily be wrong, but I have never even seen anyone say that, EVER. Even if I am crackpot, unpolitical, crass, whatever, that thought should have been said before, in our now Politically Correct culture. Not talking about it leads to less understanding, whatever is said, pretty much.

2) The phrase African American offends me. It offends me cause most of those who call themselves that have families that have been American longer than me, yet they choose to qualify their "American-ness". Accepting that easily is a step towards me having to call myself (or be forced by coming regimes) to call myself a Jewish Ukrainian American.
And that moniker makes no sense to me, other than preparing the framework for separation, divisiveness, scapegoating, and then, putting me up against the wall and killing me. Separation and division has never been good for the Jew in history , this time will be no different.

3) Seeing Roots again so many years later is very illuminating, and troubling, and thought provoking.

Hence, this offensive thread. I've already lost quite a few "friends" here who are disciples of Ayn Rand for what I have said recently. I am curious to see how many more drop off for this.

So, almost pointless. Sorry.
But thanks for your response, you are always appreciated.

[prock]

1) I think it is quite likely that Black Americans are better off where they are now than where they would have been if White Euro/Americans hadn't perpetuated the horrific crime of slavery upon them.

I suspect you don't have a clear view of the modern social demographics of blacks in America, or in a peaceful West African nation like Senegal. It kind of sounds like you're putting too much of a premium money and not enough on liberty.

In the US, black unemployment rates are double that of whites. Unfortunately, the definition of unemployment is difficult to compare between countries, but it is certainly much higher in Senegal.

In Senegal, 54% of the people live in poverty. In the US about 25% of blacks live in poverty.

The incarceration rate of blacks is six times that of whites, and double that of Apartheid era South Africa..

The US incarceration rate of Blacks is 46 times that of Senegal. In the US, thirty percent of black men without a college education-and sixty percent of black men without a high school degree-had been incarcerated by the age of 35

In the US, 13% of black men can't vote.

Economically, Blacks in the US are certainly better off, but they are far more oppressed. Freedom certainly has a value.

[prock]

I should add that the economies of countries like Senegal would also be better off if it weren't for European imperialism.

[jonathankaplan]

That is true, but how true, and who can quantify that unreality?
Europe had the power, and it was too much to expect a reality where they didn't use it. People who think there "shouldn't have been" colonial imperialism are right, but so what? Power gets used, and the white Europeans, barbarians all, had too much power to sit on their hands. People are people, after all.

[prock]

That is true, but how true, and who can quantify that unreality?

That sounds like a reasonable response to many of these "What If?" questions. But if you really think these things are beyond reasoning about, maybe it's a bit silly to proclaim things like:

"I think it is quite likely that Black Americans are better off where they are now than where they would have been if White Euro/Americans hadn't perpetuated the horrific crime of slavery upon them."

[jonathankaplan]

Perhaps.
But I'll point out that my argument doesn't relies considerably less on "what if" than the current reality, and where we are now. The counter arguments need "what if(s)" galore. My argument just points out that American society has progressed very far towards egalitarian principles. It is hard to argue much with that statement, looking at my perspectives.

Most people who read here are probability analyzers, and the nature of that world is, "often wrong, but less than others, hopefully".
To me, the silly part of this topic is the not talking about it at all.
Hence, this thread.

But in many ways, I agree.

[jonathankaplan]

Yes, it does.

I would comment that much of the above (feels to me like it) is an active war on Black Americans by the Elite, through the War on Drugs. There are many nefarious reasons for the war on Drugs in the USA, and I wonder how those statistics would differ if we weren't perpetuating this stupidity. I think the black incarceration rates would go down significantly. Still not low enough, I am sure, but a much more understandable number.
Slavery took a solid couple centuries to start, a schism of huge magnitude to end, but the ramifications aren't gone yet, and won't be gone for another generation or two. But the direction is the right direction, and the next major result point (if we are fortunate, politically, and perhaps regardless) will be more egalitarian than any society that has ever been seen on Earth. If the reality that occurred to make this happen was necessary (and I think it was probably, if not necessary, then high probability regardless) then that reality was worth it, in the long run.

I always think of the long run. I don't know who even read me this far back, but does anyone recall what I think the Primary Goal of Humankind should be? If you do, you know I don't think short term.

[prock]

I always think of the long run.

That's all well and good. But you were commenting on how things are now. Currently, things are very bleak for black Americans. In the future things may change for the better, but IIRC, you don't seem to have high hopes for America, so it's difficult to predict.

If I were a black man, and could pick any first world nation to live in, the US would be at (or near) the bottom of the list.

[jonathankaplan]

I think using the "ends/means" framework has been too confusing.
Now is just a continuum point from before to after. I see plenty of "befores" that were much more heinous than "now", and a steady trend away from that heinous culture. It is always Now, in another sense. The long run can be touched Now. I don't think that things are "very bleak for black Americans", or at least, hardly any bleaker than they are for any American (and if you took the drug "war" out of the equation, I'd make that statement stronger).
Difficult to predict is right.

Fair enough on that last part. I'll see how my granddaughter feels about it when she is old enough to live on her own. By then, I will probably be encouraging her to go elsewhere, also.

Thanks, Andrew.