First of all, guava is a fruit. Let's just get very clear about that before we go on. Guava is not a river, it's fruit.
The Arabic word for river valley is wadi. Spanish replaced Arabic initial w- with gu-. For example, Guadalquivir < al-wad al-kabir 'the Big Valley'. A lot of the Old West comes from Islam via Spain...
I had not heard of “Te Quatlasupe” before, so I googled and found that it's supposed to be a corruption of Nahuatl Coatlaxopeuh 'Serpent Crusher'. Now that would tweak a lot of Pagans I know who have a strong association between serpents and ancient priestesses. The anti-serpent theme comes direct from the Bible, of course. I think I smell a Christianized alteration of an older Nahuatl name, since the serpent (coatl) was especially sacred in Aztec religion. When we did research on La Llorona and connected her back with Tonantzin, we also found a connection with Cihuacoatl (Serpent Woman). Looks like the name Guadalupe was worked in through wordplay by some clever Nahuatl-speaking Christian.
So intuition tells me look to Cihuacoatl for the story behind the story of Guadalupe. Coatl > Guadal... What do you think?
The writer is clumsy, but has tapped into something significant: the importance of Mary in Islam. Did I tell you about the Marian Sufi order I belonged to? There were a lot of Muslims who were very deeply interested in these Marian apparitions and such, especially Zaytun in Egypt in the 1960s because she appeared to Muslims and Christians alike. (Although my FOI friend Copper thinks the apparition was an ancient Egyptian entity called an akhu, a being of light. He also said that moving lights are often seen at ancient Egyptian sites, and the woman-shaped light floating over the church at Zaytun attracted attention because it manifested there for so long.)
Growing up Catholic from time to time I saw some of the extreme Catholic types just go off the deep end with loony religious quests. I remember for a long time the Third Prophecy of Fatima was kept secret, so loony Catholics kept scaring one another with speculations on how bad it could be... I feel like I've had enough of that mania for one lifetime.
I think the Catholic cult of Mary is the continuation of ancient Mediterranean worship of the Great Mother. Christians must have observed that the Roman government had outlawed Isis worship for two centuries, to no avail, the people wanted their Isis and they were going to have Her, law or no law. Christians knew they couldn't defeat Her, so instead they stole Her. Anyway, that's my ex-Catholic mania. I like those bumper stickers, "My Goddess Gave Birth To Your God."
I still like Mary. Always did. Kind of sweet to have one personage who's stuck with me my whole life, through all my changes, Christian->Muslim->Pagan. Who else could have done that? :)
I thought the Guava was a fruit too. It just didn't sound right, but I don't know the language in question, so I thought I'd defer to someone who does. Now that you mention it, "wadi" sounds right.
I was deeply offended by the Serpent Crusher thing myself and went on a long rant against the author. o_O
I figured if he didn't know who the Plumed Serpent was, he could have made many other mistakes, and that's why I asked you about the Arabic. I thought the Goddess was Coatlicue, but only because she gave birth to the moon and the stars. She could just as easily be Cihuacoatl.
I'm pretty sure you mentioned that you belonged to the Marian Sufi order. That was the first time I'd heard there were Marian orders in Sufi, so I was rather intrigued.
I was the daughter of one of those extreme Catholic loonies! My dad believed in the visions of some woman in Bayside, NY, whose newsletter claimed the BVM told her Teilhard de Charin was going to hell, or in hell, and that UFOs were from hell. So I understand you've had enough of that to last a lifetime. I have, too.
Yeah, you're right. Coatlicue sounds even likelier, because the name begins with coatl-.
You reminded me of something. When I was hanging around with Perennialists, I looked in one of their books which warned religious people against UFOs, they're nothing but demons in disguise coming here to mess us up. To be fair, most of the Perennialist literature was more intellectual and elevated, and not particularly loony. But the Perennialists are an underground interfaith nexus for Sufis, Greek Orthodox contemplatives, anti-Vatican II Catholics, and Vedantist Hindus, where ideas from all of them are exchanged freely. In America and India they're quite harmless and even benign, but in Europe some of their fringes are connected to fascism, most of them are not fascist, but still. Eew.
The Sufi order I spent 10 years in was said to have been founded by Mary, was named after Mary, and was explained as bringing more influence of the Divine Feminine into Islam. Yet when I look back on it, the leadership of it is 100% male. The shaykh appointed four people to take on the duties of running it - all male. The lineage of shaykhs going right back to the Prophet is hung on the wall, and 100% of the names are male. This is taken for granted and no one thinks of questioning it. Hello?
I raised my feminist consciousness, I question it, and I'm not there any more. I had one feminist friend in it who helped to raise my consciousness some years ago, but she moved away.
The Arabic word for river valley is wadi. Spanish replaced Arabic initial w- with gu-. For example, Guadalquivir < al-wad al-kabir 'the Big Valley'. A lot of the Old West comes from Islam via Spain...
I had not heard of “Te Quatlasupe” before, so I googled and found that it's supposed to be a corruption of Nahuatl Coatlaxopeuh 'Serpent Crusher'. Now that would tweak a lot of Pagans I know who have a strong association between serpents and ancient priestesses. The anti-serpent theme comes direct from the Bible, of course. I think I smell a Christianized alteration of an older Nahuatl name, since the serpent (coatl) was especially sacred in Aztec religion. When we did research on La Llorona and connected her back with Tonantzin, we also found a connection with Cihuacoatl (Serpent Woman). Looks like the name Guadalupe was worked in through wordplay by some clever Nahuatl-speaking Christian.
So intuition tells me look to Cihuacoatl for the story behind the story of Guadalupe. Coatl > Guadal... What do you think?
The writer is clumsy, but has tapped into something significant: the importance of Mary in Islam. Did I tell you about the Marian Sufi order I belonged to? There were a lot of Muslims who were very deeply interested in these Marian apparitions and such, especially Zaytun in Egypt in the 1960s because she appeared to Muslims and Christians alike. (Although my FOI friend Copper thinks the apparition was an ancient Egyptian entity called an akhu, a being of light. He also said that moving lights are often seen at ancient Egyptian sites, and the woman-shaped light floating over the church at Zaytun attracted attention because it manifested there for so long.)
Growing up Catholic from time to time I saw some of the extreme Catholic types just go off the deep end with loony religious quests. I remember for a long time the Third Prophecy of Fatima was kept secret, so loony Catholics kept scaring one another with speculations on how bad it could be... I feel like I've had enough of that mania for one lifetime.
I think the Catholic cult of Mary is the continuation of ancient Mediterranean worship of the Great Mother. Christians must have observed that the Roman government had outlawed Isis worship for two centuries, to no avail, the people wanted their Isis and they were going to have Her, law or no law. Christians knew they couldn't defeat Her, so instead they stole Her. Anyway, that's my ex-Catholic mania. I like those bumper stickers, "My Goddess Gave Birth To Your God."
I still like Mary. Always did. Kind of sweet to have one personage who's stuck with me my whole life, through all my changes, Christian->Muslim->Pagan. Who else could have done that? :)
Reply
I was deeply offended by the Serpent Crusher thing myself and went on a long rant against the author. o_O
I figured if he didn't know who the Plumed Serpent was, he could have made many other mistakes, and that's why I asked you about the Arabic. I thought the Goddess was Coatlicue, but only because she gave birth to the moon and the stars. She could just as easily be Cihuacoatl.
I'm pretty sure you mentioned that you belonged to the Marian Sufi order. That was the first time I'd heard there were Marian orders in Sufi, so I was rather intrigued.
I was the daughter of one of those extreme Catholic loonies! My dad believed in the visions of some woman in Bayside, NY, whose newsletter claimed the BVM told her Teilhard de Charin was going to hell, or in hell, and that UFOs were from hell. So I understand you've had enough of that to last a lifetime. I have, too.
Reply
You reminded me of something. When I was hanging around with Perennialists, I looked in one of their books which warned religious people against UFOs, they're nothing but demons in disguise coming here to mess us up. To be fair, most of the Perennialist literature was more intellectual and elevated, and not particularly loony. But the Perennialists are an underground interfaith nexus for Sufis, Greek Orthodox contemplatives, anti-Vatican II Catholics, and Vedantist Hindus, where ideas from all of them are exchanged freely. In America and India they're quite harmless and even benign, but in Europe some of their fringes are connected to fascism, most of them are not fascist, but still. Eew.
The Sufi order I spent 10 years in was said to have been founded by Mary, was named after Mary, and was explained as bringing more influence of the Divine Feminine into Islam. Yet when I look back on it, the leadership of it is 100% male. The shaykh appointed four people to take on the duties of running it - all male. The lineage of shaykhs going right back to the Prophet is hung on the wall, and 100% of the names are male. This is taken for granted and no one thinks of questioning it. Hello?
I raised my feminist consciousness, I question it, and I'm not there any more. I had one feminist friend in it who helped to raise my consciousness some years ago, but she moved away.
Reply
Leave a comment