4134: Love Stinks

[jen_aside]

So, prompted by the usual stream of consciousness that led to mentioning how calikat linked to this article on FB [the link is on FB, not the article], the topic of The Ex came up, which was an interesting discussion. All the advice columns say that it's bad for a relationship to constantly bad-mouth [or even sweet-talk!] The Ex, but our discussion was

Comments

[jimboomega]

The real flaw in nice-guy-ism is a lack of confidence and experience, and no specific strategy will replace that. I am of the belief that so-called "Pick Up Artists" are really just mastering how to act confident through tremendous focus and practice.

Having no experience with women, pursuing a strategy derived from no experience, and then failing at that strategy is a fairly predictable set of events. It's a strategy, as you say.

The problem is that it's somewhat self-reinforcing. If you fail to have positive interactions, you might just keep trying failing strategies... and in any case, you're falling behind your peers. Being hopelessly awkward at 15 is acceptable, but at 25 it'll get you almost nowhere. What's worse, is that the failures only sink you further, make you feel less confident, etc. And who are you going to blame if you're really trying hard to be "nice"? Well, the women you are interacting with, of course.

Of course if you have success, that makes a huge difference. Just knowing that you can succeed helps a lot.

I wonder where I'd be without Chau....

[jen_aside]

There are so many accurate [in my experience] descriptions of Nice Guys™ that I honestly do want to plagiarize everybody and collect all the gems in one place, among them an anonymous chat comment, "So-called 'nice guys' that whine about finishing last aren't really that nice. For one thing, they whine."

The key is really that saying you are a "nice" guy/girl unfortunately means you define yourself by a trait that really should be a default; i.e., you say you are "nice" because you have no better way to describe yourself. I, for instance, would describe myself casually as a writer/artist... professionally, still not sure, which hurts me in the job hunt [the occupational version of being a "Nice Guy™"]. If the best you can come up with is "nice," you may as well say "boring" or, possibly, "hiding something."

Not that it isn't an easy mistake to make. Who doesn't want to be liked? Most people grow up thinking, "I'd better not do anything to piss off other people, or they won't like me," even if it means being walked all over. Saying something bad in front of someone else often results in that person hating you, so we learn to never say anything bad to that person's face, hence telling EVERYONE ELSE a thing about So-and-So but never So-and-So directly. It's sort of why college is this cesspool of inability to communicate with one's roommate: No one can get over the hurdle of talking directly to the other person. I sure couldn't... still can't, sometimes.

Anyway, a lot of "Pick-Up Artists™" either were aggressive/outspoken as kids and learned to say what they meant, or they braved emulating that. Most of my relationships started pretty much as a FOREVER ALONE desperation strategy to give anyone a chance who gave me a second look--I only initiated two of them, actually. It did ultimately boil down to, "What do you have to lose by giving it a shot?" But then, I don't think I've ever thought a friendship was endangered by a profession of love, or at least interest.

And awkwardness? I guess there can be some, but awkwardness goes away. Really. It's just really hard figuring that out.

[jimboomega]

Actually, the "Pick-Up Artist" community is primarily composed of guys who where not outspoken/aggressive/successul with women. But they saw others who were, and, through a lot of work, learned to emulate them. It is (or at least is sold as) a thing for geeks - for smart guys who lack confidence or the ability to talk to women.

The "Nice Guy" is only meaningful in the context of women, I think. It amounts to "I do everything I think she should want, but she isn't interested in me". Moreover - I'm "nice", while she sleeps with "jerks", what gives? It's not really about being nice to people in general - except, perhaps, in the sense of so exceptionally nice that people take advantage.

I've never really been in the "I don't want to lose this friendship, but I have romantic feelings" situation. That said, in high school for instance, I had some level of crush on basically every girl I knew, and told none of them. But that was more out of fear of rejection (and lack of a successful strategy) rather than out of "I don't want to lose her as a friend".

I do of course struggle with "Most people grow up thinking, "I'd better not do anything to piss off other people, or they won't like me," even if it means being walked all over." I like to think I've gotten better over the years - not that I learned to piss off other people, but to let go somewhat and accept that not everyone will like me.

[jen_aside]

I said that, there are those who emulate what they saw, like, "Acting like a jerk works for jerks, so maybe it'll work for me!" My ex was like that--he decided it was better to have no filter so to prove he had nothing to hide [in the process learning how to be completely oblivious to being completely rude].

But it seems like "jerks" don't always have to be jerks--it's the perception of those outside the relationship. "How can you stand being treated that way??" "What, like a person instead of a fragile flower?" [I don't know any specific ways of being treated by a jerk to refute them here, just extrapolating. Like a guy who plays "rough" might be appreciated by a girl who likes the physical stimulation, vs. always being held at arm's length just inside a box that says "girlfriend/wife".]

"Nice Guy," especially when capitalized, is sort of being claimed as a specific type of man(-child) seeking a relationship, but I sort of see it in the Jackie Chan "Mr. Nice Guy", too--guy who decides to always Do Right no matter what, so he gets stepped on and he can't stick up for himself against a whining woman or whatever and lets her hit him [may be a little off--it's been a while since I've seen the movie]. His "Nice Guy" is a little less Nice Guy™ in that he has self-confidence backing up his do-gooding [Kind Guy™]. But Nice Guy generally does mean pushover, though weaker against women due to having a greater incentive not to stick up for oneself.

Anyway, yes, it seems like so many people grow up with this fear of ever making a mistake, I guess especially in this Internet Age where mistakes can live forever, that there's now this whole generation+ of people who have no idea how to interact with others, even when it's easy enough to put the shoe on the other foot and see, "If someone did this to me, I wouldn't feel THAT bad," about speaking up about X.