I don't know that I believe it's as simple as all that. I completely support LJ's right to host or not host whatever content they prefer. Also, completely not down with the porny art. But since this last debacle, I have to admit that LJ's customer service is atrocious. In at least one case the art in question was not of minors, so there was no reason for the artist to know it would be a problem. And LJ couldn't be bothered to say "take down this picture", or give any sort of warning--they removed every journal she owned, along with every comment she'd ever made on anyone else's journal, even though she had a permanent paid account. So, in effect, a great many users were penalized without warning, as a result of a single offending post that the OP didn't even know was offending. This makes me uncomfortable and a little nervous. I have no present plans to leave LJ, but I really do not trust them any more, and I rather wish I hadn't bought a permanent account.
Oh, I'm sure it's not quite as simple as I'm making it out to be. And I don't have a problem with people who are considering the actual issues in a mature fashion. (as you do here, and as a couple of cool heads over on fanthropology have been doing.)
But I do have a problem with the people who are exploding with over-reaction. This post (before I settled myself down a bit) was originally going to say nothing more than GROW THE HELL UP, FANDOM in gigantic font.
I'm not leaving unless I absolutely have to. I spent four years (so far) establishing LJ as my base of online operations; I have friends here; I have archives here; I like the way it's set up; I have a culture here. The thought of all that going away, either because of LJ's stupidity or because of fandom paranoia, makes me really depressed. If I ever leave, I may well leave online fandom altogether, rather than trying to chase after it.
The the-sky-is-falling posts drive me batty; but so is LJ. I like to play by the rules, and right now it just isn't clear to me WHAT the rules are. Until a few days ago, it didn't occur to me that *I* would ever, ever violate terms of service, but now I just don't know. And, as a reasonably well-off middle-aged white woman, I'm used to very little being more than a passing annoyance; if I used what-hurts-me as a litmus test, I'd never have a view on anything
( ... )
Whereas I'm young enough to have mostly dealt with fandom through email lists and on LJ. I've deliberately kept my fandom circle fairly small, so I can actually give it some focus without killing my Real Life--I don't even frequent many non-LJ forums at this point.
I'm just not sure I'll have the energy to chase after fandom if/when it moves. Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued, is essentially demanding that I behave like them or find myself on the outside. I'm enough of a loner in Real Life, and part of a sub-sub-sub-culture of fandom (genfic); I've no desire to be even more of an outsider just because fandom decides something.
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
The other shifts were like this, too. Things like rec.arts.sf.written were so great when they first started. Then with mailing lists, it was like shifting from a large, open free-booze carnival to a party in the large backyard of someone you liked and respected, in that you had a much better chance of developing relationships with others, and there were ways of dealing with complete bozos.
Yahoo gave even more control; so, again, it wasn't so much a decision that first generation lists were bad as that Yahoo didn't have some of the issues of those lists. (I co-moderate a parenting list that moved from first-generation to something else to Yahoo over the years, and is still getting 100 posts a day.)
IOW, it's not a matter of trying to figure out; the shift is obvious when it's happening. (Though the obviousness of LJ wasn't that clear to me for quite a while!)
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
The other shifts were like this, too. Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case--I know enough older fen that I know at least a little about the general evolution of fandom
( ... )
Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued
Playing off of this... what do you think this means about what fandom wants? (Besides a good panic?) I'd have said that any rules LJ sets that permit the stuff that I write - yk, friendship-focused gen using characters I didn't invent - would be fine. But since I'm in this for the meta, and most meta touches upon slash, and many people who write very tame slash have friends who write other stuff (heck, I have friends who write a variety of stuff)... I think my point is, there's chains of friendship and most of the people who contemplate fandom may have to find a new center. So maybe there WILL be a split between types of fic writers, but I can't see a clear line to tear along... maybe a gen-slash division like in TS, but a lot of fandoms are a lot more complex.
Hummm. I do think, stepping back a little, I could learn a lot about what makes fandom important to people from this.
Interesting question! I've been pondering this since you asked it, and I'm not sure I have a good response yet. (Except to wonder if we might get an explicit/non-explicit divide rather than slash/gen over this.)
Have you thought about posting soemthing like this on fanthropology? I think some of the people there would be all over this question, and I'd love to see the discussion that might develop among people who know fandom's patterns as a whole better than I do.
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But I do have a problem with the people who are exploding with over-reaction. This post (before I settled myself down a bit) was originally going to say nothing more than GROW THE HELL UP, FANDOM in gigantic font.
I'm not leaving unless I absolutely have to. I spent four years (so far) establishing LJ as my base of online operations; I have friends here; I have archives here; I like the way it's set up; I have a culture here. The thought of all that going away, either because of LJ's stupidity or because of fandom paranoia, makes me really depressed. If I ever leave, I may well leave online fandom altogether, rather than trying to chase after it.
At least, that's how I'm feeling right now.
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I'm just not sure I'll have the energy to chase after fandom if/when it moves. Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued, is essentially demanding that I behave like them or find myself on the outside. I'm enough of a loner in Real Life, and part of a sub-sub-sub-culture of fandom (genfic); I've no desire to be even more of an outsider just because fandom decides something.
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
Reply
The other shifts were like this, too. Things like rec.arts.sf.written were so great when they first started. Then with mailing lists, it was like shifting from a large, open free-booze carnival to a party in the large backyard of someone you liked and respected, in that you had a much better chance of developing relationships with others, and there were ways of dealing with complete bozos.
Yahoo gave even more control; so, again, it wasn't so much a decision that first generation lists were bad as that Yahoo didn't have some of the issues of those lists. (I co-moderate a parenting list that moved from first-generation to something else to Yahoo over the years, and is still getting 100 posts a day.)
IOW, it's not a matter of trying to figure out; the shift is obvious when it's happening. (Though the obviousness of LJ wasn't that clear to me for quite a while!)
Also, it just really pisses me ( ... )
Reply
The other shifts were like this, too. Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case--I know enough older fen that I know at least a little about the general evolution of fandom ( ... )
Reply
Playing off of this... what do you think this means about what fandom wants? (Besides a good panic?) I'd have said that any rules LJ sets that permit the stuff that I write - yk, friendship-focused gen using characters I didn't invent - would be fine. But since I'm in this for the meta, and most meta touches upon slash, and many people who write very tame slash have friends who write other stuff (heck, I have friends who write a variety of stuff)... I think my point is, there's chains of friendship and most of the people who contemplate fandom may have to find a new center. So maybe there WILL be a split between types of fic writers, but I can't see a clear line to tear along... maybe a gen-slash division like in TS, but a lot of fandoms are a lot more complex.
Hummm. I do think, stepping back a little, I could learn a lot about what makes fandom important to people from this.
Reply
Have you thought about posting soemthing like this on fanthropology? I think some of the people there would be all over this question, and I'd love to see the discussion that might develop among people who know fandom's patterns as a whole better than I do.
Reply
- Helen
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