The the-sky-is-falling posts drive me batty; but so is LJ. I like to play by the rules, and right now it just isn't clear to me WHAT the rules are. Until a few days ago, it didn't occur to me that *I* would ever, ever violate terms of service, but now I just don't know. And, as a reasonably well-off middle-aged white woman, I'm used to very little being more than a passing annoyance; if I used what-hurts-me as a litmus test, I'd never have a view on anything...
I came to LJ for fanfic meta, and I'll follow the meta wherever it goes. I'd really like it to stay on LJ! But 25 years ago I was discussing fanfic with my best friend over games of Life, and spending babysitting money on cons; 15 years ago, I was reading rec.art.sf.written and first generation email lists; 5 years ago, it was all Yahoo. I have no clue what I'll be doing in 5 or 10 years.
RE: Paid accounts... I got one because I found some of the ads, esp. the ones for "Adult Swim," offensive. As long as I'm on LJ, I'll probably stay paid. I mean, I boycot Nestle, but if the only thing available to buy is a Crunch bar, I'd rather buy the bar than be visually assaulted and get the bar for free.
Whereas I'm young enough to have mostly dealt with fandom through email lists and on LJ. I've deliberately kept my fandom circle fairly small, so I can actually give it some focus without killing my Real Life--I don't even frequent many non-LJ forums at this point.
I'm just not sure I'll have the energy to chase after fandom if/when it moves. Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued, is essentially demanding that I behave like them or find myself on the outside. I'm enough of a loner in Real Life, and part of a sub-sub-sub-culture of fandom (genfic); I've no desire to be even more of an outsider just because fandom decides something.
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
The other shifts were like this, too. Things like rec.arts.sf.written were so great when they first started. Then with mailing lists, it was like shifting from a large, open free-booze carnival to a party in the large backyard of someone you liked and respected, in that you had a much better chance of developing relationships with others, and there were ways of dealing with complete bozos.
Yahoo gave even more control; so, again, it wasn't so much a decision that first generation lists were bad as that Yahoo didn't have some of the issues of those lists. (I co-moderate a parenting list that moved from first-generation to something else to Yahoo over the years, and is still getting 100 posts a day.)
IOW, it's not a matter of trying to figure out; the shift is obvious when it's happening. (Though the obviousness of LJ wasn't that clear to me for quite a while!)
Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued, is essentially demanding that I behave like them or find myself on the outside.
As in, you feel you need to state some sort of sky-is-falling-LJ-how-COULD-you post? Or you're annoyed by the prospect of fandom moving off of LJ because THIS is where you are?
There are times I feel like an outsider in fandom because I'm fond of my husband, I have a good, secure job that I like, and am not (usually) subject to depression... OK, tongue just a *little* in cheek, but...
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
The other shifts were like this, too.
Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case--I know enough older fen that I know at least a little about the general evolution of fandom.
I think I meant something like: the other shifts of forums (in general) seem to be based on ease of use, and a growing consensus over that, resulting in said shift. (I mean, mailing lists and Yahoo groups still exist--I use a couple of both to keep track of specialized groups, both in fandom and RL. They're just not as encompassing as something like LJ, right?)
Whereas this possible shift *away* from LJ would be based on dissatisfaction with the company hosting the forum itself; in a sense, it would be the first fandom shift (that I'm aware of) based on a value judgment that I don't necessarily share. I understand the fear that even genficcers like us might wind up randomly offending the TOS, if LJ doesn't get its act together. But overall I'm not too worried, for myself.
As in, you feel you need to state some sort of sky-is-falling-LJ-how-COULD-you post? Or you're annoyed by the prospect of fandom moving off of LJ because THIS is where you are?
LOL. Possibly more the second one, though I'm aware of how self-centered (and self-pitying) that is.
And re: your comment about being an outsider in fandom--lol, yes, me too. Except I guess I'm less of an outsider, being single and all. ;-)
Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued
Playing off of this... what do you think this means about what fandom wants? (Besides a good panic?) I'd have said that any rules LJ sets that permit the stuff that I write - yk, friendship-focused gen using characters I didn't invent - would be fine. But since I'm in this for the meta, and most meta touches upon slash, and many people who write very tame slash have friends who write other stuff (heck, I have friends who write a variety of stuff)... I think my point is, there's chains of friendship and most of the people who contemplate fandom may have to find a new center. So maybe there WILL be a split between types of fic writers, but I can't see a clear line to tear along... maybe a gen-slash division like in TS, but a lot of fandoms are a lot more complex.
Hummm. I do think, stepping back a little, I could learn a lot about what makes fandom important to people from this.
Interesting question! I've been pondering this since you asked it, and I'm not sure I have a good response yet. (Except to wonder if we might get an explicit/non-explicit divide rather than slash/gen over this.)
Have you thought about posting soemthing like this on fanthropology? I think some of the people there would be all over this question, and I'd love to see the discussion that might develop among people who know fandom's patterns as a whole better than I do.
I came to LJ for fanfic meta, and I'll follow the meta wherever it goes. I'd really like it to stay on LJ! But 25 years ago I was discussing fanfic with my best friend over games of Life, and spending babysitting money on cons; 15 years ago, I was reading rec.art.sf.written and first generation email lists; 5 years ago, it was all Yahoo. I have no clue what I'll be doing in 5 or 10 years.
RE: Paid accounts... I got one because I found some of the ads, esp. the ones for "Adult Swim," offensive. As long as I'm on LJ, I'll probably stay paid. I mean, I boycot Nestle, but if the only thing available to buy is a Crunch bar, I'd rather buy the bar than be visually assaulted and get the bar for free.
- Helen
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Reply
I'm just not sure I'll have the energy to chase after fandom if/when it moves. Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued, is essentially demanding that I behave like them or find myself on the outside. I'm enough of a loner in Real Life, and part of a sub-sub-sub-culture of fandom (genfic); I've no desire to be even more of an outsider just because fandom decides something.
The move from email lists to LJ was at least somewhat sensible: for ease of use, for networking and communicating, it just worked better.
Reply
The other shifts were like this, too. Things like rec.arts.sf.written were so great when they first started. Then with mailing lists, it was like shifting from a large, open free-booze carnival to a party in the large backyard of someone you liked and respected, in that you had a much better chance of developing relationships with others, and there were ways of dealing with complete bozos.
Yahoo gave even more control; so, again, it wasn't so much a decision that first generation lists were bad as that Yahoo didn't have some of the issues of those lists. (I co-moderate a parenting list that moved from first-generation to something else to Yahoo over the years, and is still getting 100 posts a day.)
IOW, it's not a matter of trying to figure out; the shift is obvious when it's happening. (Though the obviousness of LJ wasn't that clear to me for quite a while!)
Also, it just really pisses me off that a greater social construct, which I've happily participated in and critiqued, is essentially demanding that I behave like them or find myself on the outside.
As in, you feel you need to state some sort of sky-is-falling-LJ-how-COULD-you post? Or you're annoyed by the prospect of fandom moving off of LJ because THIS is where you are?
There are times I feel like an outsider in fandom because I'm fond of my husband, I have a good, secure job that I like, and am not (usually) subject to depression... OK, tongue just a *little* in cheek, but...
- Helen
Reply
The other shifts were like this, too.
Oh, yes, I didn't mean to imply that wasn't the case--I know enough older fen that I know at least a little about the general evolution of fandom.
I think I meant something like: the other shifts of forums (in general) seem to be based on ease of use, and a growing consensus over that, resulting in said shift. (I mean, mailing lists and Yahoo groups still exist--I use a couple of both to keep track of specialized groups, both in fandom and RL. They're just not as encompassing as something like LJ, right?)
Whereas this possible shift *away* from LJ would be based on dissatisfaction with the company hosting the forum itself; in a sense, it would be the first fandom shift (that I'm aware of) based on a value judgment that I don't necessarily share. I understand the fear that even genficcers like us might wind up randomly offending the TOS, if LJ doesn't get its act together. But overall I'm not too worried, for myself.
As in, you feel you need to state some sort of sky-is-falling-LJ-how-COULD-you post? Or you're annoyed by the prospect of fandom moving off of LJ because THIS is where you are?
LOL. Possibly more the second one, though I'm aware of how self-centered (and self-pitying) that is.
And re: your comment about being an outsider in fandom--lol, yes, me too. Except I guess I'm less of an outsider, being single and all. ;-)
Reply
Playing off of this... what do you think this means about what fandom wants? (Besides a good panic?) I'd have said that any rules LJ sets that permit the stuff that I write - yk, friendship-focused gen using characters I didn't invent - would be fine. But since I'm in this for the meta, and most meta touches upon slash, and many people who write very tame slash have friends who write other stuff (heck, I have friends who write a variety of stuff)... I think my point is, there's chains of friendship and most of the people who contemplate fandom may have to find a new center. So maybe there WILL be a split between types of fic writers, but I can't see a clear line to tear along... maybe a gen-slash division like in TS, but a lot of fandoms are a lot more complex.
Hummm. I do think, stepping back a little, I could learn a lot about what makes fandom important to people from this.
Reply
Have you thought about posting soemthing like this on fanthropology? I think some of the people there would be all over this question, and I'd love to see the discussion that might develop among people who know fandom's patterns as a whole better than I do.
Reply
- Helen
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