I Love It
Isn't it peculiar how gods have no power over you if you don't believe in them?
There are Gods who are no longer worshipped. These usually vengeful gods don't seem to be doing much of anything to us though to demand our fealty. What gives? This is why we pretty much see ancient religions like the ones rampant in Egypt, Greece and Rome to be myths ( Read more... )
There are Gods who are no longer worshipped. These usually vengeful gods don't seem to be doing much of anything to us though to demand our fealty. What gives? This is why we pretty much see ancient religions like the ones rampant in Egypt, Greece and Rome to be myths ( Read more... )
Another thing I think which is wrong with the concept of religion is that it can have such broad meaning. You make me happy by saying that stories like Adam and Eve are no longer thought of as fact, but that doesn't change that a lot of American counties and states, especially in land, hold the Bible to be pure fact. How do you explain these reports about people rejecting Evolution being taught in schools in favoure of creationism? In the end I suppose it has nothing to do with religion. In the end it has everything to do with simple people who are too blinded by their faith to see the bigger picture and to be rational about things. It is always a minority of people who make everything they hold dear seem like a bad thing and blow it all out of proportion.
With religion it frightens me because fundamental extremist people seem to outweigh the sensible ones, such as yourself. Maybe that's only because they talk louder, who knows.
I also think Science and Scientists can be a bit misunderstood by religious people. Scientists can be seen as cold, unfeeling. Driven by facts and theories. For some reason people tend to think that science takes the mystery and glory out of life and the world around us. You are right, it doesn't. Knowing the things we know should only heighten the miraculousness and good fortune of our existence. I don't think God created any of these things but it doesn't diminish what we have in the least.
I just wish more people would be enlightened about these things. Would stop hiding behind absolute religion, absolute science. Learn about both sides because there needs to be a balance so things can flow properly, just like Eastern philosophies tell us, hehe.
I don't know if you had time to read all the lengthy comments that I exchanged with my friend up there but I get the impression you didn't get through all of it. And if I did then. wow... I must really learn to get my points across more clearly. I really don't find religion useless. It is part of humanity and we have to deal with it. As I said a lot of good can come from it on a personal level.
Religion can't ever be outdated because it is beyond science. I am not making a comment on if this is good or bad. Science can certainly be outdated though and people strive to improve it and learn.
I don't know Crystal. You might think I'm still a stupid uncouth, pretentious little fuck who's trying to dump shit all over everyones beliefs. But I really hope you don't, because I really don't feel like I am. I think I've come a fair way since those earlier debates that we used to have on here. Or maybe I'm just delusional? I don't want to put any value judgments on people though.
I think we all delved a lot deeper into this than what my initial post was about. But that's a good thing, hehe!
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I think that your comments above have shown respect for religious people, and that is all I ask of anyone. And I have never thought poorly of you, though we did have a few debates. Debating and disagreeing with someone is quite different than actually telling someone things like "You must be retarded for believing that!"
And religion, like science IS a changing thing! It has to be. Of course, back in 'da day, everyone believed in the Adam and Eve story. Today, that is quite different. I can't say whether the changing is a bad or good thing, aside from acknowledging science as a valid way to get information, for it is that.
It seems religion is constantly under attack these days, and I think the main reason some religious people are afraid to accept evolution is because of the argument that you have to either take the Bible for "all or none." I certainly don't believe this is entirely true. You should try to feel a little sympathy for those people, because they fear the most important thing in their life is being ripped away from them, and they generally aren't very educated in matters of science or religion, and they don't know enough or how to argue. They're also usually not strong enough in their faith to have any arguments against it. As you said, blind people indeed.
As for scientists themselves, I rather am one! It is my major in uni, and I am hoping to soon attend grad school in Microbiology as well! So I do know how the scientific community looks at religious people in general, and I will say that majoring in science has been a test of my faith, but in the end I have still come out believing, and I am proud of it. I have asked myself all of the questions, and found answers for every one. I don't feel ignorant for believing in God, and I do know quite a bit about all of the science that many people try to use and dispute religion. But the two fields are too far apart, they are not even on the same plane, and so just as you cannot use one to prove the other, neither can you use one to disprove the other. And I think it's meant to be that way. You can't and never will be able to scientifically prove or disprove God, just as you cannot scientifically prove or disprove right from wrong.
I've had prayers answered, and wonderful feelings barely containable. I've been comforted and loved, even in hard times and pain. Something keeps me strong through all, and since I've always turned my problems to God in prayer (which I do at least once daily), I feel it is He Who recues me. Religion is not for everyone, but I have always felt blessed that it found me!
But please, don't take any offense - none was ever meant toward you! I have always enjoyed your posts, and conversation. I think you're just lovely! :-)
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I think that it's a great thing for your faith to be tested, and for it to continually be tested. As you say, it makes you stronger for it.
Religion and Science will probably always butt heads together but this also serves its purpose because discussion is a marvelous thing.
I feel really good about this. Thanks for joining in and laying out your point of view ^^
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I have to say, I do admire you, too. You must be very strong, to believe in nothing, and to go on as you do. Your faith in humanity is, to me, pretty unbelievable, and very admirable. I have a pretty low opinion of the species in general. We could do great things, but, in general... we don't.
My opinion overall is that, when it all gets down to it, we are all human, and no matter what you believe happens after death, we all share the same experiences in life. We all love, feel pain, hope, happiness and sadness, and in the end, we all die. I think we all need to remember our similarities, our humanity, and realize that the differences can make us stronger, or tear us apart.
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I can't remember if I mentioned this in my earlier posts, and if I have, I will go into furthur detail. As I mentioned before, I was never baptised/christened as a child and so whenever I did go to church or get into discussions with my friend (whose family strongly denies the big bang, evolution, and a lot of other scientific things) about religion, I would go into a little panic state where upon I would ask my mum when I got home if I should get baptised. She would always look at me and go, "Well do you want to?" and I would go, "No. I don't know. What if I don't go to heaven?"
Then I think when I was ten, I formed my own little ideas. Why do I have to be christened or baptised? God is supposed to take you no matter what; if you believe in him, it shouldn't matter. I didn't realise then I was starting to go against christening, and religion overall. I reasoned, why do I have to follow a certain religion. The meain ones believe in the same God, and if I want to believe what I want, this way is better.
I tried arguing to my religious friend, and family, at that point that why can't science and God both be right? I argued that the Bible isn't concrete - it is only versions of stories past down. The general message might be in there, but it can't be expected to be all true.
My Nana actually surprised me by voicing this to me not so long ago. She is religious, but she also believes in science.
Anyhow, my friend and her family argued back to me, with a whole pile of nonsense, saying in some section, it was handed down by God, and so on. I actually remember the first time I mentioned dinosaurs (or my frist memory of me talking to them about dinosaurs) - and (having always loved them) I rambled on and on about them. I was so shocked when they replied that Dinosaurs weren't really ever there, there is no 'real' proof. And I was laughing inside with half shock and disbelief (I think I also laughed outloud at some point, but I was only a kid!) and we had this heated discussion (or arguement) whether they were real or not.
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(CONT.)
I think, after many years of coming back to certain things like this (and then my learning not to mention anything refering to or going against religion again), I gbecame very against religion. Thankfully though I met other religious people who weren't as blind, and I became more, er, what's the word... understanding? Or less against?
Continuing on, I think I have always never really ever been able to believe in something like that since my mum told me about Santa Clause not being real. The funny thing is, I think was beginning to realise it when I was 8, and as soon as mum told me, I knew I would never be able to have the same sort of faith in something like that again. Magical or religious. I just merely sat there and accepted it.
Then when I began to learn more (that New Zealand was NOT England... -___- yeah I was a bit horrible with geography when I was 8 or 9!! lol!), and grew older, I think somewhere along my many attempts to understand the mere existance of God and the sometimes hypocritical views of religious people, and as much as I tried to believe, I came to a point where I realised I didn't believe at all. I sort of realised that I never really did believe in it at all.
One of the most oddest things, though, is my friend's (I have't been naming since now) sister, though growing up in the exact same way as my friend, going to church every week, somehow came out of it all to not believing in God. I find it awfully weird, seeing as I hadn't really spoken to her for a year, and then when she started highschool, I learned (she told me secretly) that she actually didn't believe in it. I think she wound up like me, realising as hard as she tried, it just went against all that she had learned, and waht she came to believe in. Then a couple of years ago (she is starting year 12 now) she admitted to her mother, and was allowed to stay back from Church, which I think was a big step for that sort of a family.
Anyhoo, now that I have discussed my transition to this, I would just liek to comment, quickly, on what you have said over all. I like that even after learning that all, you still came back to be able to believe (if not entirely all that what my friend and her family believes in) in the main concept of God. It is good to hear that therre are people believing in their own beliefs, and different versions of what the mainstream religion provides as the 'gospel'.
I think it is more worthwhile learning all that you can and coming back to your own conclusions for yourself. This is why I have always disliked tightnit religious families, the sort that practically force upon their children what to believe in. It would be more apporpriate to just provide information, and let them decide for themselves. Blindless feeding on something is not a good thing, especially in this day and age, when there is no longer any need for it, nor excuse. It has always reminded me of cults (and people in religions have certainly done this as well) where they 'brainwash' people into believing something, especially for their own means.
Nevertheless, you are right. What would the world be like without believing in something? I had thought just then, perhaps then religion will evolve with science. It is the only plausible thing, as I'm sure it will be where people like yourself form another religion where it is according to both from the bible and science, and it forms your own little beliefs from that. And perhaps science too, could form a type of religion, to an extent. A following - or perhaps it will be called a common belief - of what we have discovered from science so far, and what we have learned.
Thanks for this guys, this was an interesting day for me at work, excercising my brain at last!!
And my last little comment, before I knew what scientology was, I used to think it meant the belief of science and so on. LOL... And it can be safely said that if I used to be against religion when I was younger, this is one religion I officially hate (not doubt or question) as this is the prime example of what sad morons there are in this world. Come on! Little aliens inside us? It was made up by a science fiction/fantasy writer, damn it!
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LOL.. Yes Scientology is bit pathetic. Especially since most of the people that are into it are those that are extremely rich (Tom Cruise - what a moron!), actors, and so on. It's all to be popular, I think.
The reason I said "into" and not believed is I don't think most people actually believe in it that follow it - as it's mainly the "in" thing in America. Then again, Tom Cruise might actually believe in it, and some of the other people, too, in which case I laugh. I laugh so hard. I would be more inclined to believe that perhaps the old Gods (as Ili mentioned) lost their power - as I sometimes like to think - when the new God, the Lord came into existance or belief, than believing there are tiny little alien spirits inside all of us.
Actually I like that idea of thinking, if more so for the fantastical view of things. One of my favourite authors of fantasy, Diana Wynne Jones, has this same sort of idea in "The Merlin Conspiracy" (which you are yet to read Ili! Grr! :P) - wait no, it was the one before it, "Deep Secret". What it is, a God from another world came into this world, where these group of followers (from the world it came from) and tried to take over this so called magical spot. A magical spot being like the Stone Henge, and so on,
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Oops, sorry, accidentally clicked 'post comment' there! That's good, coz I thought I lost all what I typed!
Back to what was saying:
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When the Magid (like a wizard except they are like authority figure that keeps control of magic in each world) tried to send the evil god away, out of this world, he couldn't because it was getting to much strength from the 'believers'. Anyways he defeated it by doing some weird dance/chant and so on...
The point is, I like the idea of all these Gods still existing, but not having any more power. Like Everworld, or something. Makes it all the more interesting. Hehe...
Anyway, since I'm going off topic completely, I'll finish up with the main topic, in that, yes, Scientology is for morons.
I just wish it didn't have that name, as shouldn't it be alientology? :P I wanted to have science as a form of belief under that name as a kid... hehe...
Oh and no, I haven't seen that episode of South Park, I don't watch it much anymore, but I would like to as it sounds so funny! Apparently it created sucha huge fuss in their team as well. The guy that played Chef thought it was completely offensive, seeing as he was Scientology.
I found that rather funny and hypocritical seeing as he had no problem ripping off other religions. Even the creators ripped off their own religions. So yeah, even though people can rip things off, when it comes to something they believe in, they don't like it. I find this stupid, as it was all a bit of fun, no matter what religion it pokes fun at, and he must have been stupid if he believed in scientology anyhow.
Anyways, it was great tlaking about this with you. It feels good to be able to talk to someone who is religious, but has a good knowledge of the world as well! (and not have my head bitten off either). Haha! Thanks for your insight! ^_^
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Not sure if I believe that debris part, although it does sound cool. I've always just figured life spawned because the climate changed on the planet. And if we do assume life spawned from another planet, then we would continue on to ask, how did life form there? And so on.
I still want to know exactly how life sprang about, but I think it's something we never really will completely understand. So for now, I just like to be content with the explaination that the climate changed, or a reaction occurred.
But then, in saying that, we could say that the climate changed from reacting to the debris that fell onto our planet.
Either way, we never will completely know.
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I did make up my own mind, but I didn't do so blindly. I never understood why people thought God should show Himself constantly, why He should mess up an important balance of things just to show His power and say "Hey, look at Me, I'm great and holy, so worship Me!" There are miracles everywhere, anyway. We just take them for granted.
I believe in the concept of Free Will. I believe it's all up to us to decide how our life goes, and God may know what's going to happen to us, but He lets us decide it. God is always there, but He doesn't force Himself upon you, and I think it's wonderful.
I have been baptised, though I am not Baptist. I view it as a way of making a vow, and though I could have made the vow just as easily without the ceremony, I did want others to know, so that they could help me with my path when I needed it. It's another decision that is up to the person.
And... Wow! I have heard a lot of things, but never anyone just outright denying the existance of dinosaurs! I wonder how they explain all those fossils.
And science! Oh, it is wonderful! Could anything be more interesting? Especially the field of Parasitology. As I learn more about the microbial world, I view the entire world so differently. All of the interactions we are unaware of, which are of utmost important to life! And genetics! And physiology! Oh, how can people NOT wonder, not need to know more about their world and themselves? How can one feel one doesn't need to learn? It blows my mind.
I love dinosaurs, too. Aren't they most intriguing?
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And I laughed out loud when you said "I wonder how they explain all those fossils."! Haha!
And though I'm not completely interested in the smaller life, it is interesting some things I've learnt about the microscopic world.
What I do find more interesting is genetics. I watched this amazing documentary on the study of human genetics one day, and what they were trying to find is where we came from. Well, if we can trace back to one of our earliest ancestors. I wish I could remember what exactly they did, but I think they were looking at their chromosomes, or something.
They had a research group of uni students in that field helping them. They had all different people from different backgrounds. Anyhow, they discovered that while we get our DNA mostly from our fathers', our Chromosomes (it might not even be that word - I wish I could remember more) came from our mothers, and each female carries it on to their child, or something of the sort. So, by using this they could trace back many years to where people would have the same mother's; and have been related, where upon some now could almost match...
Before testing they asked who the students thought they would wind up relating more to. Each one thought it would most likely be someone from their background, or someone that looks more like them.
This was not the case, though. They soon found that some people that looked completely different were almost a perfect match. I think it was a girl from an asian background, and a white person. An african person was actually more related to an asian guy. Then they looked at the people from the same backgrounds and some were very different from the other.
The show, in the meantime of this testing, went on to talk about humanity, and how we have been forever travelling to many places, mixing, mating, interbreeding and so on, that this research has made them realise you can't really judge people by race, as we all pretty much have a bit of genes/blood from all over the place.
It furthur went into detail about why we might look different. This was the most interesting and simple part, that it afterwards you think it should be common sense. The reason for our different genetic make-up is due to where we lived. Africans live in the most hottest places, adapting to the hot sun, and because of the constant danger, adapted to being tall and thin, for fast running.
White people are white because (originally from Europe) they lived in the cold, with not so much sun.
Asians lived souther, and what they ate (wheat, rice, fish and not so much meat) left to being smaller than someone on mainly a meat diet.
But the best thing about this was that they discussed in great detail, tracing whree humans have roamed all the way back to when they were nomads. Using furthur evidence of the period after Gondwanaland (africa being part of the centre) points to Africa being the main place where we all came from. Then we travelled outwards and so on.
It was very interesting, and I laughed at the end when they said we all came from Africa, jokingly saying to mum, "We used to be black!" But it was such an interesting discovery, and I loved every moment of it. I liekd that it also scientifically proved we are all generally the same, something that it has taken us all many years to understand (and for some to still understand), and yet for some people to have it proven what they knew all along (or came to that conclusion) it was just great! It was all done without the mention of ancestry apes either, so I am glad that atleast it didn't(so far as I could see) go against that area of religion.
Ah, yes, you said it before; science is so wonderful! ^_^
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Like the answer, 42... *laughs madly* :P
But as to why God, or any God for that matter, would plant a bunch of dead things in the soil... what do they think he was trying to accomplish? What was he trying to do? Fertilise the ground? Be decorative? Or perhaps he left it there, patiently waiting, so when someone found it and began to imagine these huge monsters on earth billions of years ago, he sat on his throne laughing his arse off... 'Dinosaurs, honestly!'
Or, a better and mroe likely theory, they were the discarded bones of Cerberus, the three headed dog, guardian to the underworld.
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LMAO! That's brilliant, ahaha! I'm gonna write up an LJ entry soon about Evolution vs. Intelligent Design. I watched a doco on it and need to vent and think it all through a bit. I'm sure you'll find it interesting to some degree ^^
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