even more on third-gender in Wicca
I'm in yet another good discussion of how I approach third-gender in Wicca. And yet again, the discussion has been stimulated by the rantings of the same ijit. At least sie's good for something.
http://community.livejournal.com/wiccan/1481574.html
Since it's a locked entry, I'm copying my comments below.
I've also started a separate post for this discussion, which is NOT locked. Come play.
http://community.livejournal.com/wiccan/1481922.html
You're confusing two distinct categories: gender and sexual orientation. Gay men are men. Tommy and I, on the other hand, are third gender.
That does create a separate issue in gendered Craft. My Lady's solution was simple: She told me to go find a third-gender deity and bring hir back for the coven to work with. So we now call our Lady, or Lord, and our Revealer at pretty much every circle. And the experience of the Revealer has been useful to others in the circle, just as experience of the Lord is useful to women and experience of the Lady is useful to men.
As I see from your profile, you self-identify as "physically male" and in saying that, you seem to have no problem with owning your physical parts, which of course pertains to Wicca-as-we-know-it-here.
You're not quite right. I don't identify as "physically male". I identify as third gender, and acknowledge that I am physically male. But that anatomy does not make me a better priest than priestess. We've had me try both, and I can do either, but not very well or naturally. So, we have me function as a third role, which we are calling herald for lack of a better word. I'm much better and more comfortable in that role. And some of the conventionally gendered members of my coven have functioned as herald on occasion and found the experience valuable.
Note: I should define what I mean by "functioning as ___." In our coven, the priest is the individual into whom the Lord is invoked, the priestess is the individual into whom the Lady is invoked, and the herald is the individual into whom the Revealer is invoked.
maybe you should pay more attention to what ian is saying... that despite people here having been nice to hir she still feels excluded from BTW and that some of the gender based practices and requirements have ostracized and alienated hir, even when individual practitioners have not.
That is NOT what I've been saying! Not even close.
feels excluded from BTW:
My lineage goes back to NECTW rather than Gerald Gardner, thus I'm not BTW. That doesn't mean I feel excluded, it just means that I'm honest about my upline.
some of the gender based practices and requirements have ostracized and alienated hir:
My primary Craft, ContraryWise, is not gendered. This is probably partially because I'm the founder of the lineage, but it's also because we aren't Wicca, and so gender just isn't a primary metaphorical domain for our Craft. Then I met a wonderful couple who did practice gendered Craft, and we found that we really wanted to work together. I found a great deal of beauty and inspiration in the way they practiced and I wanted the deep connection that initiation brings, so I asked for initiation from them (even though I was already 3* in ContraryWise). But then we discovered that neither priestess nor priest really worked for me in their circle. So my Lady charged me to figure out what would work. And she and he supported me as we began the exploration. And the coven grew and stretched and now includes three genders of people and deities all of the time.
just because LGBT will conform to hetero normative gender standards to fit in and make nice doesn't mean they're truly happy or healthy doing it:
No one should do that! If someone isn't comfortable with a style of Craft for gender or sexuality reasons, that is clearly the wrong form of Craft for them.
What I did say about being uncomfortable was that when I found myself uncomfortable in a forum, I left it. I did NOT say that it was because of gender or sexuality reasons. In the case I remember best, it was because I was attacked for pointing out that there have been cases of priest/esses using the influence of their position to manipulate young people into having sex. (I was accused of being sexist and agist for that one, and told that it was a betrayal of the sanctity of priestesses to mention it. Mind you, I never mentioned who, what trad, where, or when. Oh, and someone said that they would have hit me if I'd dared to say that in their presence. I believe that was the Amber&Jet list.)
I was not the least bit offended. I can distinguish between ignorance and malice. My approach is to educate ignorance and avoid malice.
And I would argue that what makes my coven not BTW is not the addition of a third gender, but the simple fact that our upline is not BTW. I think that a BTW coven could add a third gender without disrupting the BTW-ness. That would, however, require negotiation with the elders of the lineage which we didn't need to do, since we don't identify as part of a trad. (Though I suspect Franque thinks of us as Blue Star.) The reason I think that could work is that we added the third gender without *removing* anything that was already part of our way. The main change is that we now invoke three deities, rather than just the two we used to.
i shouldn't have to get out my legal history of homosexuality in america or case studies of suicidal and dead LGBT
What has any of that to do with an initiatory mystery cult? Wicca-ADITC is NOT a religion. It offers initiation into *specific* mysteries, with hetero-erotic love as the central metaphor. If that metaphor doesn't float your boat, find something that does. Don't ask the Wica to give up their central mystery--that which makes it *Wicca* as distinct from all other forms of modern pagan Witchcraft.
I've been a queer activist since the mid-eighties, and Wicca has never been a source of oppression. You know where I have seen problems in terms of LGBT inclusion in modern paganism? I've seen it when people who *aren't* Wiccan initiates assume that all of modern paganism should use the hetero-erotic metaphor including in public ritual. Get that? It isn't the Wica who try to impose heteronormativity, it is the people imitating Wicca from the outside. One of the reasons I'm so emphatic about the distinctiveness of Wicca-ADITC is that setting it apart makes it much easier to point out that Wiccanate ritual is NOT the only option for public ritual.
The only way that anyone is "being forced to fake it" is that *some* covens, when confronted with a transperson who does want to celebrate the Wiccan mysteries have insisted that the individual must perform the gendered role associated with the gender they were labeled at birth. That is, some covens have insisted that someone like me (third gender, but biologically male) or an MTF *must* function as a priest, and only a priest.
it's not about what you do, sexually. It's about how you came about.
That, by the way, is why I emphasized the distinction between sexual orientation and gender identity. If what is being represented is how we came about, and the coven requires that the two individuals performing the rite be opposite genders, then what genders the individuals are does become an issue. I honestly don't know if I could effectively perform either role in the Great Rite. (I checked with one of my covenmates. She suspects that I could do either role, if I had the right connection with the other person involved. But that's just speculation at this point.) In our opinion, what is most important in terms of ritual roles for transfolk is what the individual's identity and experience is.
* The Farrars' scripts for the Great Rite can be found (illegally) at:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/rituals_spells/great_rite.php
A script for a cup blessing can be found at:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/rituals_spells/cup_blessing.php
I think that once you've compared those pages you'll understand why most folks call the brief form "a cup blessing" or "wine and cakes" and reserve the term "Great Rite" for the longer rite, which is performed less often. I've been known to refer to the cup blessing as "the Lesser Rite of Union" and the longer rite as "the Great Rite of Union" to emphasize both the relationship and the distinction.
I think the whole conversation about adding a third deity to Wicca without the practice not being considered Wiccan very interesting.
I think you're misunderstanding me. We aren't Wicca-ADITC because we don't have BTW lineage. I consider what we do to be Wicca, and adding the third deity didn't change that. (If I didn't consider what we--and our Blue Star cousins--practice to be Wicca, I wouldn't be participating in this community.)
Have you come up with a name for the practice?
Nope, and we won't. We practice a Way, we don't belong to a Trad. Hrm...let me give some context that may help that sentence make sense...
The following is the introduction to The Book of Shadows of Little Circle on the Plain:
Concerning our Way:
Nothing in this Book of Shadows is laid down as a law for you to follow. These are suggestions, possibilities, no more. We are traditional, but are not a Tradition. We believe that the Craft must be a living tradition, constantly growing and changing. Remember and honor your roots, but stretch your branches to the sky.
http://community.livejournal.com/wiccan/1481574.html
Since it's a locked entry, I'm copying my comments below.
I've also started a separate post for this discussion, which is NOT locked. Come play.
http://community.livejournal.com/wiccan/1481922.html
You're confusing two distinct categories: gender and sexual orientation. Gay men are men. Tommy and I, on the other hand, are third gender.
That does create a separate issue in gendered Craft. My Lady's solution was simple: She told me to go find a third-gender deity and bring hir back for the coven to work with. So we now call our Lady, or Lord, and our Revealer at pretty much every circle. And the experience of the Revealer has been useful to others in the circle, just as experience of the Lord is useful to women and experience of the Lady is useful to men.
As I see from your profile, you self-identify as "physically male" and in saying that, you seem to have no problem with owning your physical parts, which of course pertains to Wicca-as-we-know-it-here.
You're not quite right. I don't identify as "physically male". I identify as third gender, and acknowledge that I am physically male. But that anatomy does not make me a better priest than priestess. We've had me try both, and I can do either, but not very well or naturally. So, we have me function as a third role, which we are calling herald for lack of a better word. I'm much better and more comfortable in that role. And some of the conventionally gendered members of my coven have functioned as herald on occasion and found the experience valuable.
Note: I should define what I mean by "functioning as ___." In our coven, the priest is the individual into whom the Lord is invoked, the priestess is the individual into whom the Lady is invoked, and the herald is the individual into whom the Revealer is invoked.
maybe you should pay more attention to what ian is saying... that despite people here having been nice to hir she still feels excluded from BTW and that some of the gender based practices and requirements have ostracized and alienated hir, even when individual practitioners have not.
That is NOT what I've been saying! Not even close.
feels excluded from BTW:
My lineage goes back to NECTW rather than Gerald Gardner, thus I'm not BTW. That doesn't mean I feel excluded, it just means that I'm honest about my upline.
some of the gender based practices and requirements have ostracized and alienated hir:
My primary Craft, ContraryWise, is not gendered. This is probably partially because I'm the founder of the lineage, but it's also because we aren't Wicca, and so gender just isn't a primary metaphorical domain for our Craft. Then I met a wonderful couple who did practice gendered Craft, and we found that we really wanted to work together. I found a great deal of beauty and inspiration in the way they practiced and I wanted the deep connection that initiation brings, so I asked for initiation from them (even though I was already 3* in ContraryWise). But then we discovered that neither priestess nor priest really worked for me in their circle. So my Lady charged me to figure out what would work. And she and he supported me as we began the exploration. And the coven grew and stretched and now includes three genders of people and deities all of the time.
just because LGBT will conform to hetero normative gender standards to fit in and make nice doesn't mean they're truly happy or healthy doing it:
No one should do that! If someone isn't comfortable with a style of Craft for gender or sexuality reasons, that is clearly the wrong form of Craft for them.
What I did say about being uncomfortable was that when I found myself uncomfortable in a forum, I left it. I did NOT say that it was because of gender or sexuality reasons. In the case I remember best, it was because I was attacked for pointing out that there have been cases of priest/esses using the influence of their position to manipulate young people into having sex. (I was accused of being sexist and agist for that one, and told that it was a betrayal of the sanctity of priestesses to mention it. Mind you, I never mentioned who, what trad, where, or when. Oh, and someone said that they would have hit me if I'd dared to say that in their presence. I believe that was the Amber&Jet list.)
I was not the least bit offended. I can distinguish between ignorance and malice. My approach is to educate ignorance and avoid malice.
And I would argue that what makes my coven not BTW is not the addition of a third gender, but the simple fact that our upline is not BTW. I think that a BTW coven could add a third gender without disrupting the BTW-ness. That would, however, require negotiation with the elders of the lineage which we didn't need to do, since we don't identify as part of a trad. (Though I suspect Franque thinks of us as Blue Star.) The reason I think that could work is that we added the third gender without *removing* anything that was already part of our way. The main change is that we now invoke three deities, rather than just the two we used to.
i shouldn't have to get out my legal history of homosexuality in america or case studies of suicidal and dead LGBT
What has any of that to do with an initiatory mystery cult? Wicca-ADITC is NOT a religion. It offers initiation into *specific* mysteries, with hetero-erotic love as the central metaphor. If that metaphor doesn't float your boat, find something that does. Don't ask the Wica to give up their central mystery--that which makes it *Wicca* as distinct from all other forms of modern pagan Witchcraft.
I've been a queer activist since the mid-eighties, and Wicca has never been a source of oppression. You know where I have seen problems in terms of LGBT inclusion in modern paganism? I've seen it when people who *aren't* Wiccan initiates assume that all of modern paganism should use the hetero-erotic metaphor including in public ritual. Get that? It isn't the Wica who try to impose heteronormativity, it is the people imitating Wicca from the outside. One of the reasons I'm so emphatic about the distinctiveness of Wicca-ADITC is that setting it apart makes it much easier to point out that Wiccanate ritual is NOT the only option for public ritual.
The only way that anyone is "being forced to fake it" is that *some* covens, when confronted with a transperson who does want to celebrate the Wiccan mysteries have insisted that the individual must perform the gendered role associated with the gender they were labeled at birth. That is, some covens have insisted that someone like me (third gender, but biologically male) or an MTF *must* function as a priest, and only a priest.
it's not about what you do, sexually. It's about how you came about.
That, by the way, is why I emphasized the distinction between sexual orientation and gender identity. If what is being represented is how we came about, and the coven requires that the two individuals performing the rite be opposite genders, then what genders the individuals are does become an issue. I honestly don't know if I could effectively perform either role in the Great Rite. (I checked with one of my covenmates. She suspects that I could do either role, if I had the right connection with the other person involved. But that's just speculation at this point.) In our opinion, what is most important in terms of ritual roles for transfolk is what the individual's identity and experience is.
* The Farrars' scripts for the Great Rite can be found (illegally) at:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/rituals_spells/great_rite.php
A script for a cup blessing can be found at:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/rituals_spells/cup_blessing.php
I think that once you've compared those pages you'll understand why most folks call the brief form "a cup blessing" or "wine and cakes" and reserve the term "Great Rite" for the longer rite, which is performed less often. I've been known to refer to the cup blessing as "the Lesser Rite of Union" and the longer rite as "the Great Rite of Union" to emphasize both the relationship and the distinction.
I think the whole conversation about adding a third deity to Wicca without the practice not being considered Wiccan very interesting.
I think you're misunderstanding me. We aren't Wicca-ADITC because we don't have BTW lineage. I consider what we do to be Wicca, and adding the third deity didn't change that. (If I didn't consider what we--and our Blue Star cousins--practice to be Wicca, I wouldn't be participating in this community.)
Have you come up with a name for the practice?
Nope, and we won't. We practice a Way, we don't belong to a Trad. Hrm...let me give some context that may help that sentence make sense...
The following is the introduction to The Book of Shadows of Little Circle on the Plain:
Concerning our Way:
Nothing in this Book of Shadows is laid down as a law for you to follow. These are suggestions, possibilities, no more. We are traditional, but are not a Tradition. We believe that the Craft must be a living tradition, constantly growing and changing. Remember and honor your roots, but stretch your branches to the sky.
- If you can, you are.
- Wing it shall be the whole of the Law.
- You have to ask.
- Perfect love and perfect trust.