My take on American liberalism.

[i_am_the_owl]

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Quote:"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."-The Declaration of Independence

Life:This kinda goes without saying since everything else is dependent on it, but let's break

Comments

[wifflebatgaijin]

On a more serious note, as discussed by Clayton, saying that these "truths" (or rights, as it were) are "self-evident" - also known as "If you just think about it, you'll see that these are true - is hardly a fair and strong logical base.

I mean, if you really think about it, you'll see it's true that everyone should submit to me.

Since I'm a big fan of calling things what they are; just say it - WE, AS A SOCIETY, AGREE THAT WE HAVE GIVEN OURSELVES THE FOLLOWING RIGHTS.

[i_am_the_owl]

I've always thought of the "self-evident" rights as a sort of premise for everything else, though; it doesn't matter that claiming they're "self-evident" isn't a strong logical base since you're already saying "this is how it is".

No, sir. Everyone should submit to me. Except on Thursdays. Everyone should submit to you on Thursdays.

I agree that this is what it actually is, and that no higher authority need be consulted on such matters. Oddly enough, bringing "their Creator" into it is a logical fallacy unto itself.

[wifflebatgaijin]

So it's okay to have a weak logical base because you already have a weak logical base?

[i_am_the_owl]

It'd be like starting an argument with the premise "God exists and is omniscient and omnipotent". Everything else in the argument relies on the premise being true, but you don't necessarily have to defend the premise.

When you're using this as a premise for your government, you're saying "this is what people have, it doesn't matter where they got it because they have it" and then you set your government up accordingly.

Can you think of any form of government that doesn't start with what could be called a weak logical premise?
-I am King because God wants me to be.
-I am your ruler because my daddy was.
-I am the ruler because you all aren't capable of it.
-We must protect these rights, ergo government.
-We want to eventually not have government, but in the meantime ...
-Why not have a government?
-To keep the rich rich and the poor oppressed and exploited.

The only one I can think of that has a good logical foundation is tyranny: "I am your ruler because I have the biggest army."

[wifflebatgaijin]

The only one I can think of that has a good logical foundation is "We're going to govern ourselves this way because it's the way we've agreed on".

But point taken. You were just unclear in your previous note.

[choke_yourself]

"I am your ruler because I have the biggest army."

Fallacious Appeal To Armor.

[i_am_the_owl]

Empirically sound appeal to bullets.

[choke_yourself]

Ha!