The term IC/OOC in H/D post-Hogwarts long stories

[painless_j]

wayfairer's post of recs pushed me to thinking in an unexpected direction.

She recommended fearlessdiva 's Tissue of Silver ("ToS is one of the best full-length fics in the fandom despite its rough state, and the new rewrites have turned it from a purely skilled, romantic fic to an absolutely incredible work. Go. Read. And then go fangirl her on the Armchair. :D")

Comments

[verstehen]

I can't give examples from any of those stories, as the only one I've read is The Lodger. From reading the summaries, the only one I would read is Tissue of Silver. But that's because super!Harry is a kink of mine and not because I think it seems plausible.

I think we can talk about IC/OOC with future stories easily. See, there's logical development and illogical development. Stories in which Harry is dead is a logical development of the plot. Stories in which Hermione goes to university is an illogical development of the plot and therefore OOC. Stories which take care to have a logical extrapolation from canon are going to feel more IC that ones that ignore canon entirely or make assumptions that are false.

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[painless_j]

I'm dim or it's just 4 am. Why does Hermione's going to university is an illogical development? Because of non-mentioning of the universities in canon or because it contradicts her character? Please, answer, I do want to know why you think so.

I have to appeal to cathexys' thought that there are things that can change people. Especially if we speak about rather long periods of time. If in a fic the characters were 20-22 years old, then possibly we could use such categories as logical development. If they are 30, no, I think we can't. Who could predict that a shy, reserved and quiet teenager [my boyfriend] would turn into a missile-like, confident, loud and outgoing man by his 35?

But well, I'm incorrect, you speak of the development of the plot. I suppose it's too early for us to speak about it. Reading the third book, I wouldn't expect the 'Snape's worst memory' chapter, which makes Marauders far more complicated than they were seen with the eyes of 13-year old Harry. Even Harry himself of the 5th book is very different from the Harry of

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[verstehen]

Well, Rowling has said that there are no wizard universities. No wizard higher education. So, having Hermione going to a wizard university, as such, would be contradicting canon.

Even worse are the stories that have a wizard going to a Muggle university. Their education ended at age eleven. They don't have the tests to get in. And if, by chance they managed to fake the scores and education, a wizard would flunk out at the beginning of the first semester. That's seven years of education they don't have.

I have to appeal to cathexys' thought that there are things that can change people. Especially if we speak about rather long periods of time. If in a fic the characters were 20-22 years old, then possibly we could use such categories as logical development. If they are 30, no, I think we can'

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[painless_j]

re universities: yes, agree, especially Muggle ones.

re everything else: point is clear :) Thank you.

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[isiscolo]

I guess this depends on whether you think of Rowling's extra-canonical (meaning, outside the books) interviews as being part of canon. Wizard universities (or some form of wizard higher education) seem like a logical thing to me. But I do agree on the Muggle universities being out-of-bounds.

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[verstehen]

Well, even within the books, don't you think someone like Percy would have gone to a university rather than straight to work? I think after Hogwarts, there is no further education available except for through apprenticeships with others or on-the-job training. True apprenticeships are likely very rare and for specialties. Everything we have (Percy, the Aurors, etc) points to on-the-job training. So.

But I understand what you mean in terms of auxiliary canon/primary canon. I personally think people miss really important points about the stories if they ignore things like Fantastic Beasts, the Quidditch books or the interviews.

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[isiscolo]

Oh, I think I agree about Percy - didn't think of it, but it's a great example.

I agree that the supplementary texts add a lot (for example, QTA talks about brooms in the context of Apparation being limited to short distances, so therefore all these fics in which people Apparate across continents are "wrong".) But some contradict others - see the Lexicon for examples of how some of the Famous Wizard Cards give eras for Wizards which are contrary to book-canon.

And going to University (e.g.) isn't so much OOCharacter as OOCanon, I guess. I agree with - oh, whoever it was - that provided that the groundwork is laid or explained, I can accept nearly anything - for example, in Transfigurations, Draco as Muggle Studies Professor sounds terribly OOC, but once the background of why is explained I can accept it.

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[marinarusalka]

I think we can talk about IC/OOC with future stories easily. See, there's logical development and illogical development. Stories in which Harry is dead is a logical development of the plot. Stories in which Hermione goes to university is an illogical development of the plot and therefore OOC.I think you're mixing up plot development and character development here. Since there are no wizard universities, it would make no plot sense for Hermione to go to one, but in terms of characterization, it would make perfect sense for her to want to further her education by whatever means *are* available -- apprenticeship, independent study, etc. It's possible to write a story where the first wizard university is founded and Hermione attends it, or a story in which wizard universities exist in other parts of the world -- I believe JKR was only talking about wizarding England when she mentioned lack of universities. The point is, *if* a higher education option was available, it would be perfectly in character for Hermione to seek it out

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[verstehen]

Well, the thing is that the characters should serve the plot not the other way around. So il/logical plot developments also affect the characters and the way they grow. Sending Hermione to a Muggle university would affect her differently than if she gained an apprenticeship or joined the Aurors.

I agree with you completely about the 'sufficient backstory' but there's always going to be things that, even with backstory, are going to see completely ridiculous. Back when it was the fic of the month on Midnight Oil, I slogged through about half of the Of Silver universe until I reached Of Linen. Ooodles and ooodles of backstory. Still read as completely ridiculous and wildly out-of-character to me -- and it wasn't only because of the way the characters acted, it was the plot too. So I think it has to be a fusion of believable plot and believable reactions/actions within the constraints of the plot

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[marinarusalka]

Well, the thing is that the characters should serve the plot not the other way around.I think it is the other way around, actually. Most of the bad characterization I've seen comes from twisting the characters around to serve the plot: turning Ron or Sirius into homicidal psychos to provide an obstacle for Harry's perfect romance with Draco or Snape, making Hermione into a helpless ditz so that Snape can be the dashing hero who rescues her, etc. I think it works better when the plot servers the characters. If an author wants to explore how Hermione would pursue her love of learning after Hogwarts, it's not that difficult to come up a canonically plausible scenario to shoe how she does it

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[painless_j]

I think, actually, that here we are just speaking of two different types of novels. One is so-called 'classical' novel, which means big serious novels of the 19 century and those that follow the tradition. They are the study of Character, even when they aren't psychological novels literally. In them, sure, it works "the other way around". The second type (hugely simplifying the matter for the sake of the dispute) uses characters for plot, like detective and action/adventure novels. Seems so, no?

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[marinarusalka]

It's true that the balance between character and plot tends to vary a lot from genre to genre (or from category from category). One of the sources of tension, I think, is that fanfic is a very character-oriented category, but the source material on which it's based tends to be plot-driven. Now, ideally, plot and characterization should balance and serve each other. In PoA, for example, the plot requires that no one knows that Sirius is an Animagus, and Remus is given believable character traits that explain why he keeps that information to himself. In OOP, on the other hand, the plot requires that Harry doesn't use his two-way mirror to check if Sirius has really been captured, and many readers felt that this was not sufficiently explained in terms of Harry's character. In fanfic, we get a lot of stories that try to provide psychological explanations for events about which we only have plot information: why did Sirius send Snape to the Whomping Willow, for example, or why Snape joined/quit the Death Eaters

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[painless_j]

So very true and therefore rare : /