Of Pensieves and Memory and Age (oh my!)

[cmwinters]

I had a discussion in my own journal a day or so ago, asking specifically "Why didn't Harry ever think to use a Pensieve to go over his memories of Godric's Hollow? We know that he has SOME memory of them somewhere, because he was able to hear a running commentary of it when the Dementors were around

Comments

[cmwinters]

Snape was off looking at his exam results and not paying any attention to the Marauders at all until James and Sirius went on the offensive.

[sylvanawood]

---I believe, and I believe I will be borne out in this, that while Dumbledore does trust Harry's welfare to Severus Snape, the opposite is not true, and I believe that he does not trust Snape's welfare with Harry with good reason. Until Harry can learn to block out Voldemort intentionally, ...snip... I absolutely agree with this. Harry only knows what he absolutely needs to know to get on with his mission

[cmwinters]

Agreed...*except*...Jo's last statement."...The Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things ... things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere."
Am I taking that out of context? Perhaps slightly...but I think it's a relative context

[sylvanawood]

The interview quote does not necessarily contradict the amnesia idea; Snape remembered the werewolf-talk without knowing that he did, and he has access to his memories. He remembered the scene and the details came along with it. I think JKR sees the brain as something like a harddrive that records everything from the camera (eyes) and microphone (ears). Perhaps smell is included, too. The pensieve replays that section from the harddrive, all that was recorded, whether the person was aware of it at that time or not

[cmwinters]

Well, the amnesia thing that you're talking about is kind of contradicted by common sense. It's specifically been stated that if you have a memory of being downstairs with your daughter, say, doing dishes, a Pensieve moment will allow you to walk *upstairs*, where you were *not*, and look out the window, and see what's going on outside. However, her universe, her rules (which is fine by me).

That, however, doesn't necessarily mean that Snape *remembered* the werewolf conversation at all, because he wasn't participating in it and really gave no indication of hearing it. Harry *could* have stayed in the castle, for example...Snape wouldn't have remembered what was going on inside the castle after he left, because he wasn't there. But there were definitely details there that Snape didn't "remember".

Your last sentence, what would have stopped Dumbledore from "just going in" *where* with Harry?

[snorkackcatcher]

I agree with you that the Pensieve acts as a recording device that magically picks up everything for quite a way around even if you couldn't actually physically see it (thus Harry sees the whole Great Hall in Snape's memory even though Snape was looking solely at his paper).

However, I don't think that JKR stressing the importance of this is necessarily because of something in Book 7 (although it could be). It's already important for her to have got across the idea that Pensieve memories are objective, so that we don't think Snape's Worst Memory is coloured by his attitude to the Marauders, or that the various information-providing flashbacks Dumbledore shows Harry are unreliable?

[cmwinters]

Mmmmm...quite possibly.

We certainly shall see! ;)

[midnitemaraud_r]

Actually, I'm rather under the impression that the reason Harry has never used a pensieve himself is because such an act wouldn't fit in with the plot. She gives us bits and bobs of information in a particular order. For instance, non-verbal spells. There were a few examples in previous books, but they were pretty much mostly done by Dumbledore - and even wandless as well in some instances. But in general, Harry (and therefore we the reader) never really noticed non-verbal spells as being a common thing for older students and adults. Then again, Harry is obviously not very aware of a lot of things - like McLaggen being in Gryffindor. That bothered me mostly because McLaggen is not the type who would blend in into the shadows - he was brash and loud and annoying and I found it hard to believe that for five whole years Harry never really noticed him in either the common room or at the table in the Great Hall

[m_ho]

It's all about the plot and her slow, gradual revelation of clues that serve both the main plot on the whole and the particular plot of each book. She likes her secrets and the 'big reveal'. We can't know, therefore Harry can't know, until she wants us to.

This is the line I tow, so far be it from me to actually try to explain some of Rowling's plot holes organically, but here I go: Harry's never looked at his own memories because he's not introspective at all (belying his curiosity), and he's never really had access to a Pensieve. I guess he could ask Dumbledore to borrow his, but Dumbledore would deny him for the same reasons he won't tell Harry why he trusts Snape or deny him with the "it doesn't do to dwell on dreams" line (not exact quote as I am bookless). I guess Harry could buy one, but he's never made an expensive purchase before, and I don't see him starting with a Pensieve.

[cmwinters]

I don't know that Dumbledore would discourage him on the basis of "not being good to dwell on dreams" at all, actually.

Dumbledore's told him that Pensieves help when you have too much going on in your mind and it helps you to straighten your thoughts and view things from a different perspective, but yes, I agree (obviously) that giving one to Harry if it could potentially be harmful to Snape, he wouldn't encourage it. ;P

[m_ho]

Dumbledore's told him that Pensieves help when you have too much going on in your mind and it helps you to straighten your thoughts and view things from a different perspective...

Good point. The Mirror of Erised serves a completely different and opposite purpose, as it is purely dream. I was just thinking that by only revisiting familial moments in the Pensieve, Harry would be focusing on this unattainable dream, even if he were trying to clarify events. But the mirror would probably show things all idealized, whereas the Pensieve would show things as they are, so not very dream-like at all.

[vvvexation]

Now...how does Snape know *exactly* how James died, *specifically* that James refused to believe he'd been betrayed by Sirius (who, up until about three minutes before this scene, *EVERYONE* thought was the Secret Keeper, including his own best friend), unless he was there to see it???

But that's not what happened. James was in on the switch, so it was Peter who James didn't believe had betrayed him--or, more likely, just didn't find out until it was too late.

[cmwinters]

I understand that, but Snape seems to have believed that James made Sirius the Secret Keeper and that Snape tried to talk James into leaving *because* Sirius betrayed him.

And, because James *KNEW* that Sirius didn't betray him, I can see him not believing the rest of the argument.

At least, to me.

(Cute cat)

[vvvexation]

Ah, I see. That makes a certain amount of sense, except that it requires Snape to have known the Potters had been betrayed but not known by whom, and that's a little bit of a stretch to imagine.

[cmwinters]

You are absolutely correct. The assuming he overheard a conversation that he wasn't supposed to overhear is ABSOLUTELY the *VERY WEAKEST* part of the theory, but at least I figure i can back that up with *some semblance* of
canon.

Although, I admit my theory has flaws. And some people....just don't do that....