Back To the Garden
Obviously my first reaction to this is to be bitchy, but I'll keep that under control if possible.
Though, someone may have to hold my clip-ons.
Is Jeremy still awake...?
The most productive thing for me to do is to just respond (not necessarily disagree with or disprove or anything) to what I... responded to.
Lately I have fealt like you aren't part of that in my life, even though you should be, because you spend too much time worrying about what Ben and Nate think and what you're doing with them.
I can't say I worry about what they think, but what they feel. I don't care what they think about me in the way that I don't think that there is more wrong with me than with them.
I worry about what they feel because their feelings about me are less clear (I'm not talking about relationship-wise, because those are clear. I'm talking about how they view my friendship with them, becuase things have changed of late).
My thoughts pertaining to them also don't keep me from being in your inner circle or whatever. I'd say I've seen you more than anyone so far this summer. Or at the least as much as everyone else.
Anything that may or may not keep us from being close has nothing to do with how I feel about them.
As evidenced at the end of last summer when I stood by you.
ON tuesday when you told me that Nate was a better person than I am, that really hurt my feelings. I know I laughed when you said something to the effect as, "Nate is the highest quality of a person I know." Because I think that opinion is highly biased, given the fact that you and him have been friends since you were really young. That is like me saying "Steph is the highest quality person I know" because of our past. I know for a fact that she isn't and neither am I to her.
First I'm going to nitpick that I said "one of the best people" and didn't use the word quality.
I don't know if I said it loud enough or not at all, but I did add in that I was using hyperbole about that comment. Nate definately has communication skills I wish you and Ben had, but he has his faults as well. Like he deals with my sarcasm and criticism and "criticism" the least well out of anyone.
The only reason I said that is because you scoffed when I mentioned ways I wished Ben was more like Nate. And I was defending Nate because I have no use for your opinions about him.
I'm not biased about Nate because I've likely complained about his faults (as I percieve them and as they actually are) more than anyone in existance. But I have learned how to appreciate the good things about him in an effort to just be... nicer to him in general.
I was going to say that if anything you are biased against Nate, but I suppose you are just doing the best with the experiences that you have had.
The fact of the matter is that you HAVE fucked over Nate. Both with the bi thing in high school and with last summer. So any distaste he had/has for you is totally valid. You may think that he was being a vengeful lesbian or whatever by not letting it go, but if you ever did something to me like you did to him last summer I would be done with you. At least for a while.
You haven't really experienced Nate's better qualities (or dont' acknowledge them) because you don't deserve to recieve them. He started being your friend and then you flushed that down the toilet.
And again I bring up that after the incident I cared about you both equally.
The things I like about Nate don't have much to do with how long I've known him, they have to do with the fact that they are a part of who he is. I feel that I've knocked him and complained about him enough in my life where it's time that he deserves for me to appreciate him.
Ranking your friends always causes drama because one person always likes one more than the other.
When you said one day last semester that your friends were like a *something plant* where Nate was your star and it unferrals into others like.
Well if you really did read this past entry, or listened to anything that I've said in the past two to three months, you would know that that diagram isn't true anymore. And even in the past I don't like how big that circle in the middle is.
Ranking does cause drama, but it's also natural. It's like the Hierarchy of Information. It's basically impossible for things to not be ranked. It happens naturally, whether we like it or not. It may seem unfair, but other people do it to me as well. It's pretty clear to tell where I stand with some people. That being: less than others.
And to be honest I generally don't have a problem with it because that's just how it goes. However, (obviously) with some people I wish I was higher.
That is the worst way to view people you care about. Not only does that show that you are self centered,
Anybody who knows you knows the obvious retort to this comment, so I'm not even going to type it out loud.
because you focus all your energies on one person (believe me I used to do the same with Adam).
The energy focusing has generally been a mutual thing. In the world post high school Nate put the most energy into me and in turn I did the same for him. And when he didn't then I purposely cut back because (although he still doesn't seem to respect this way of going about things) I didn't think he deserved to get any more than I got.
This past semester with Ben was also totally mutual. I think he even got the ball rolling, and hanging out after school was, more often than not, his idea.
So it's not like I was pouring all this excess energy into him before I got something in return. Over winter break I was getting to the point where I was just gonna let things slip with him but then things changed.
Maybe you didn't notice because you were rarely around this past semester, but I think I did a pretty good job of putting some focus on everyone. God knows I tried.
Aaaaaaaaaaand. This summer. Outside of a handful of times, the only reason I've even hung out with people was because I started it. I contacted them and made it happen. I've been contacted to do something maybe twice by you and bryn and once by Nate I remember.
And, outside of Peter who has been locked in the water logged basement of Cousins, I have seen everyone so far this summer. And because I wanted it and started it. So any accuasations that I focus all energies on one person are officially being ignored.
Of course certain people will shift in importance, like you once said, but doesn't that mean that somewhere down the road you have shifted in importance to Nate? Of course it does. He has moved on to find significant others, and You kept pining at him in the in between stages between Cody and Nick.
I was afraid that by going off on the Nate tangent in the beginning of this past entry that it would give off the impression that I care more about Nate that I do. So obviously I did.
But, once again, you weren't reading close enough. Or paying attention to anything that has been going on for the past couple months.
I hardly sit around and pine for Nate. My feelings for him were hardly ever that sugar coated and idealistic.
More than anything I'm just trying to be honest with myself by admitting that I still have feelings for Nate. Outside of a couple times in the past month or so I haven't had any real romantic feelings for Nate since FEBRUARY. Seriously, how do you not know this? Everyone else does. I've even talked about it here.
AND. I didn't shift in importance to Nate in full till the end of school when, at Pizza Shuttle (so many awful things have happened there, yet I still love going there...gah), I told him how Ben and I acknowledged each other as best friends. He said that while he was aware we didn't see each as often, and, admittedly, he did talk to Allie more by default, that he didn't think things between us had changed. And I didn't really either. Because our interactions, while rare, were always very fun and enjoyable.
Only then did things seem to shift, and I'm not even sure how much damag was done by that. And that which has been done has already partially (at least) been fixed. At least judging by the way he's been acting in these past weeks.
In my mind, I saw that as weakness.
My feelings were not weakness. The sex was if anything else. Though that was on both of our heads.
And, to be catty, you are far from the picture of mental strength. Your inability to control your mouth and actions has gotten you in trouble on various occassions.
Nate had made it clear to you over and over that you weren't going to be any more than a friend to him. Yet you kept holding on to your feelings. Don't think I am discrediting your feelings here, remember, I believe I am one of the people you can listen to in a situation like this because of how things were with Adam.
If you discredited my feelings it wouldn't matter because your opinion wouldn't be taken into consideration. *shimmy*
I really don't hold onto my feelings. I HAVE them. I really can't make them go away. And, if you consulted him on it, I think I've done the best I can at keeping things in check.
But, oh wait, you can't consult Nate becuase you can't talk to him because you fucked his boyfriend. And then told the whole world abou it. And continued to bring it up to more and more people as time went on even after he requested that you not.
Ok, I'll take my clip-ons back from Jeremy now.
I do however appreciate the fact that you have been in this situation, and thus my shoes. Or heels. Whichever.
Nagging about your feelings only pushes the other person away. Remember when I didn't talk to Adam for 7 months? It's because I never shut up about how much I was in love with him, even after he said that that part of our relationship was over.
Can't argue with that. I share the opinion that nagging can cause harm, but I'm pretty much incapable of not doing it because if I don't speak my mind on some things to some people then I'm just bitchy because I'm not saying something rather than because I am. But he/they/people have full knowledge of this.
I have talked to numerous people (Steph, Kate, Bryn, my mom) about the whole thing with yours and Nate's relationship,
Not that that means much because you rarely ever/never present a situation fairly. Everyone has bias in presenting a situation (se above reference to the hierarchy of information) but I generally try to offer up other people's sides or even defend them when I talk about stuff. Not always, but it slips in there a bit most times.
Your version of the truth is generally even more skewed than even Ben when he talks about stuff.
and looking at the whole past you two had, and seeing how hard it is/was for you to cope with Nate having boyfriends who aren't you, that you should have taken a break from seeing him.
I did take a break (by comparison). I saw him like once a week or every couple weeks from February till June. You make it sound like you have no knowledge of this?
And in turn my feelings have gone about as away as they're gonna.
Waiting till the feelings blow over. Of course I know that is a hard thing to do. The only way I got over Adam, because my feelings for him still existed after taking the break, was the fact that he died.
If I recall correctly the last time we talked about this... and... EVERY TIME YOU GET DRUNK AND TURN INTO A SOBBING MESS, you are not over Adam. I'm not over Nate. Allie's not over Nate. Ben's not over Kasey. Etc etc etc.
We're about as far as we're ever going to be.
Now I am not saying that Nate needs to die in order for you to not look at him in that way, but the fact that you are evaluating your friendship what it is now and what it was is kind rediculous. I may be off my hourse here, and I don't mean to judge you at all. Remember I'VE BEEN THERE.
?
Now ok.. I just went on a tangent. The best thing to say is, Don't let your friends be put on the cast system. We all love you the same,
It would be naive to think that everyone likes me as much as they like their other friends. Or as much as I like them. Or vice versa. I don't think I've ever seen this level of shared importance and companionship in anything outside of anime.
but when you rank us in importance, it makes us kind of upset. Joe (yes Joe) once told me that you know you're balanced when you have many aquaintences, a few friends and enough GOOD friends to count on your ONE HAND. I think that is the wisest things he's ever said to me. (go figure that was the day we met) Anyways. The more you rank your friends, the more pissed off they will get at you, because either you aren't giving them enough stock, or you are investing too much into them that they are uncomfortable.
Possible. Though the only people who have ever expressed dislike for how I do things are you and Ben. Exemplifying both ends of the spectrum. I think everyone else is pretty comfortable with how I view them because it is equal to how they see me (Allie, Bryn, Pam, Reg, Ashley, Squeedge, etc). And some people I think I like more than they like me back (co-workers, Ben, Peter, Jeremy, Dan, Casey).
Who needs a power couple, when you can have a kick ass group?
I think it's been made fairly obvious that some groups just don't work. On a small scale we've proven the rule of 'one person out of the three or four will always be in a bad mood'. And then there are people who don't get along who have to be kept apart.
The Table works as a group, yes. But there are unavoidable exceptions.
The complete group of people I know cannot interact anymore.
I love ya man
-Adam
I may have gotten out the claws a bit in this response, but that's just because I don't think we're ever going to see this situation eye to eye. Nor can we. At least not now.
But disagreement doesn't sink a friendship.
So don't go thinking I don't still love you back.
I refuse to say the phrase "I love ya man", even in jest.
-Adrian
Though, someone may have to hold my clip-ons.
Is Jeremy still awake...?
The most productive thing for me to do is to just respond (not necessarily disagree with or disprove or anything) to what I... responded to.
Lately I have fealt like you aren't part of that in my life, even though you should be, because you spend too much time worrying about what Ben and Nate think and what you're doing with them.
I can't say I worry about what they think, but what they feel. I don't care what they think about me in the way that I don't think that there is more wrong with me than with them.
I worry about what they feel because their feelings about me are less clear (I'm not talking about relationship-wise, because those are clear. I'm talking about how they view my friendship with them, becuase things have changed of late).
My thoughts pertaining to them also don't keep me from being in your inner circle or whatever. I'd say I've seen you more than anyone so far this summer. Or at the least as much as everyone else.
Anything that may or may not keep us from being close has nothing to do with how I feel about them.
As evidenced at the end of last summer when I stood by you.
ON tuesday when you told me that Nate was a better person than I am, that really hurt my feelings. I know I laughed when you said something to the effect as, "Nate is the highest quality of a person I know." Because I think that opinion is highly biased, given the fact that you and him have been friends since you were really young. That is like me saying "Steph is the highest quality person I know" because of our past. I know for a fact that she isn't and neither am I to her.
First I'm going to nitpick that I said "one of the best people" and didn't use the word quality.
I don't know if I said it loud enough or not at all, but I did add in that I was using hyperbole about that comment. Nate definately has communication skills I wish you and Ben had, but he has his faults as well. Like he deals with my sarcasm and criticism and "criticism" the least well out of anyone.
The only reason I said that is because you scoffed when I mentioned ways I wished Ben was more like Nate. And I was defending Nate because I have no use for your opinions about him.
I'm not biased about Nate because I've likely complained about his faults (as I percieve them and as they actually are) more than anyone in existance. But I have learned how to appreciate the good things about him in an effort to just be... nicer to him in general.
I was going to say that if anything you are biased against Nate, but I suppose you are just doing the best with the experiences that you have had.
The fact of the matter is that you HAVE fucked over Nate. Both with the bi thing in high school and with last summer. So any distaste he had/has for you is totally valid. You may think that he was being a vengeful lesbian or whatever by not letting it go, but if you ever did something to me like you did to him last summer I would be done with you. At least for a while.
You haven't really experienced Nate's better qualities (or dont' acknowledge them) because you don't deserve to recieve them. He started being your friend and then you flushed that down the toilet.
And again I bring up that after the incident I cared about you both equally.
The things I like about Nate don't have much to do with how long I've known him, they have to do with the fact that they are a part of who he is. I feel that I've knocked him and complained about him enough in my life where it's time that he deserves for me to appreciate him.
Ranking your friends always causes drama because one person always likes one more than the other.
When you said one day last semester that your friends were like a *something plant* where Nate was your star and it unferrals into others like.
Well if you really did read this past entry, or listened to anything that I've said in the past two to three months, you would know that that diagram isn't true anymore. And even in the past I don't like how big that circle in the middle is.
Ranking does cause drama, but it's also natural. It's like the Hierarchy of Information. It's basically impossible for things to not be ranked. It happens naturally, whether we like it or not. It may seem unfair, but other people do it to me as well. It's pretty clear to tell where I stand with some people. That being: less than others.
And to be honest I generally don't have a problem with it because that's just how it goes. However, (obviously) with some people I wish I was higher.
That is the worst way to view people you care about. Not only does that show that you are self centered,
Anybody who knows you knows the obvious retort to this comment, so I'm not even going to type it out loud.
because you focus all your energies on one person (believe me I used to do the same with Adam).
The energy focusing has generally been a mutual thing. In the world post high school Nate put the most energy into me and in turn I did the same for him. And when he didn't then I purposely cut back because (although he still doesn't seem to respect this way of going about things) I didn't think he deserved to get any more than I got.
This past semester with Ben was also totally mutual. I think he even got the ball rolling, and hanging out after school was, more often than not, his idea.
So it's not like I was pouring all this excess energy into him before I got something in return. Over winter break I was getting to the point where I was just gonna let things slip with him but then things changed.
Maybe you didn't notice because you were rarely around this past semester, but I think I did a pretty good job of putting some focus on everyone. God knows I tried.
Aaaaaaaaaaand. This summer. Outside of a handful of times, the only reason I've even hung out with people was because I started it. I contacted them and made it happen. I've been contacted to do something maybe twice by you and bryn and once by Nate I remember.
And, outside of Peter who has been locked in the water logged basement of Cousins, I have seen everyone so far this summer. And because I wanted it and started it. So any accuasations that I focus all energies on one person are officially being ignored.
Of course certain people will shift in importance, like you once said, but doesn't that mean that somewhere down the road you have shifted in importance to Nate? Of course it does. He has moved on to find significant others, and You kept pining at him in the in between stages between Cody and Nick.
I was afraid that by going off on the Nate tangent in the beginning of this past entry that it would give off the impression that I care more about Nate that I do. So obviously I did.
But, once again, you weren't reading close enough. Or paying attention to anything that has been going on for the past couple months.
I hardly sit around and pine for Nate. My feelings for him were hardly ever that sugar coated and idealistic.
More than anything I'm just trying to be honest with myself by admitting that I still have feelings for Nate. Outside of a couple times in the past month or so I haven't had any real romantic feelings for Nate since FEBRUARY. Seriously, how do you not know this? Everyone else does. I've even talked about it here.
AND. I didn't shift in importance to Nate in full till the end of school when, at Pizza Shuttle (so many awful things have happened there, yet I still love going there...gah), I told him how Ben and I acknowledged each other as best friends. He said that while he was aware we didn't see each as often, and, admittedly, he did talk to Allie more by default, that he didn't think things between us had changed. And I didn't really either. Because our interactions, while rare, were always very fun and enjoyable.
Only then did things seem to shift, and I'm not even sure how much damag was done by that. And that which has been done has already partially (at least) been fixed. At least judging by the way he's been acting in these past weeks.
In my mind, I saw that as weakness.
My feelings were not weakness. The sex was if anything else. Though that was on both of our heads.
And, to be catty, you are far from the picture of mental strength. Your inability to control your mouth and actions has gotten you in trouble on various occassions.
Nate had made it clear to you over and over that you weren't going to be any more than a friend to him. Yet you kept holding on to your feelings. Don't think I am discrediting your feelings here, remember, I believe I am one of the people you can listen to in a situation like this because of how things were with Adam.
If you discredited my feelings it wouldn't matter because your opinion wouldn't be taken into consideration. *shimmy*
I really don't hold onto my feelings. I HAVE them. I really can't make them go away. And, if you consulted him on it, I think I've done the best I can at keeping things in check.
But, oh wait, you can't consult Nate becuase you can't talk to him because you fucked his boyfriend. And then told the whole world abou it. And continued to bring it up to more and more people as time went on even after he requested that you not.
Ok, I'll take my clip-ons back from Jeremy now.
I do however appreciate the fact that you have been in this situation, and thus my shoes. Or heels. Whichever.
Nagging about your feelings only pushes the other person away. Remember when I didn't talk to Adam for 7 months? It's because I never shut up about how much I was in love with him, even after he said that that part of our relationship was over.
Can't argue with that. I share the opinion that nagging can cause harm, but I'm pretty much incapable of not doing it because if I don't speak my mind on some things to some people then I'm just bitchy because I'm not saying something rather than because I am. But he/they/people have full knowledge of this.
I have talked to numerous people (Steph, Kate, Bryn, my mom) about the whole thing with yours and Nate's relationship,
Not that that means much because you rarely ever/never present a situation fairly. Everyone has bias in presenting a situation (se above reference to the hierarchy of information) but I generally try to offer up other people's sides or even defend them when I talk about stuff. Not always, but it slips in there a bit most times.
Your version of the truth is generally even more skewed than even Ben when he talks about stuff.
and looking at the whole past you two had, and seeing how hard it is/was for you to cope with Nate having boyfriends who aren't you, that you should have taken a break from seeing him.
I did take a break (by comparison). I saw him like once a week or every couple weeks from February till June. You make it sound like you have no knowledge of this?
And in turn my feelings have gone about as away as they're gonna.
Waiting till the feelings blow over. Of course I know that is a hard thing to do. The only way I got over Adam, because my feelings for him still existed after taking the break, was the fact that he died.
If I recall correctly the last time we talked about this... and... EVERY TIME YOU GET DRUNK AND TURN INTO A SOBBING MESS, you are not over Adam. I'm not over Nate. Allie's not over Nate. Ben's not over Kasey. Etc etc etc.
We're about as far as we're ever going to be.
Now I am not saying that Nate needs to die in order for you to not look at him in that way, but the fact that you are evaluating your friendship what it is now and what it was is kind rediculous. I may be off my hourse here, and I don't mean to judge you at all. Remember I'VE BEEN THERE.
?
Now ok.. I just went on a tangent. The best thing to say is, Don't let your friends be put on the cast system. We all love you the same,
It would be naive to think that everyone likes me as much as they like their other friends. Or as much as I like them. Or vice versa. I don't think I've ever seen this level of shared importance and companionship in anything outside of anime.
but when you rank us in importance, it makes us kind of upset. Joe (yes Joe) once told me that you know you're balanced when you have many aquaintences, a few friends and enough GOOD friends to count on your ONE HAND. I think that is the wisest things he's ever said to me. (go figure that was the day we met) Anyways. The more you rank your friends, the more pissed off they will get at you, because either you aren't giving them enough stock, or you are investing too much into them that they are uncomfortable.
Possible. Though the only people who have ever expressed dislike for how I do things are you and Ben. Exemplifying both ends of the spectrum. I think everyone else is pretty comfortable with how I view them because it is equal to how they see me (Allie, Bryn, Pam, Reg, Ashley, Squeedge, etc). And some people I think I like more than they like me back (co-workers, Ben, Peter, Jeremy, Dan, Casey).
Who needs a power couple, when you can have a kick ass group?
I think it's been made fairly obvious that some groups just don't work. On a small scale we've proven the rule of 'one person out of the three or four will always be in a bad mood'. And then there are people who don't get along who have to be kept apart.
The Table works as a group, yes. But there are unavoidable exceptions.
The complete group of people I know cannot interact anymore.
I love ya man
-Adam
I may have gotten out the claws a bit in this response, but that's just because I don't think we're ever going to see this situation eye to eye. Nor can we. At least not now.
But disagreement doesn't sink a friendship.
So don't go thinking I don't still love you back.
I refuse to say the phrase "I love ya man", even in jest.
-Adrian