I do know there are some inconsistencies with the character, and it is partly the writer's fault, but they don't just do it with Keller. They all have the tendency to use the characters to suit the plot, rather than let the characters guide the plot. Some writers are worse than others (*coughMallozziMullieGerocough*), and I know that they have to fit things into a short time frame, but still...
They do force things to happen with the characters rather than let them take a natural progress. I'm not bitter at all that the end scene from "The Shrine" and the way it almost twisted my viewing of Keller. No.
And you'll say, 'Good work,' or grunt, or slap me on the back unnecessarily hard."
Hee! That was awesome. I'm in the middle of rewatching the episode again, but the Ronon/Rodney interaction really isn't bothering me that much. I think it's because Ronon and Rodney don't quite get each other in the way the rest of the team does, so the expression of their friendship is a little more rough and tumble.
I'm very happy with Keller being a competent and ethical doctor and saving her patients and doing better hand-to-hand than Rodney ever does!
I find it hilarious, and yet appropriate that she would take to hand-to-hand better than Rodney. And I also like that she's competent, stands her ground for her patients, and still flinches away from danger. I really do like that as a touchstone.
They all have the tendency to use the characters to suit the plot, rather than let the characters guide the plot. Absolutely! I rant about it not infrequently. I think Rodney frequently reverts to earlier stages of character development, not just for plot reasons, but because the writers think it will get them a cheap laugh. Hey, we all revert sometimes, but I'm really tired of watching Rodney act like he did when he was still a noob.
BH said he was particularly struck by the paucity of friendship shown between Ronon and Rodney given how close Rodney was to dying not all that long ago. They may not get each other, but they do care for each other. (Awww, team....)
I think Rodney frequently reverts to earlier stages of character development, not just for plot reasons, but because the writers think it will get them a cheap laugh.
The cheap laughs don't really bother me most of the time, because I can see it as part of Rodney's core character. He's capable of change, and he does change, but he thinks. A lot. Maybe all of the time, which can lead to him not thinking about the task at hand -- and missing social cues, so he winds up putting his foot into his mouth, realizing that he shouldn't be talking, should not be screaming at the top of his lungs and attract an entire troupe of Hunter Wraiths.
Yes, yes, it probably is writing choices, but I like to rationalize things out via canon.
I'm more disgruntled when they do it for the sake of plot, and it's a major regression for no other point than they feel like they can because they're writers. For me, "Trinity" is a huge case of this. I honestly thought I saw a lot of character growth in season one, to the point where he wouldn't be making stupid jokes about John being his coffee maid, and would never intentionally and consciously use their friendship to meet his own agenda. Subconsciously, yeah, totally. But not deliberately and calculated.
And I think it annoys me more because when it's on screen, it's canon, and for me that's set in stone. Unless I can find a way to connect the character points in my mind, there seems to be no explanation for it. Which is probably why I write fanfic *g*
They may not get each other, but they do care for each other.
They really do care for each other, and darn it, Jason Momoa, they like each other. It was very, very apparent in "The Shrine".
given how close Rodney was to dying not all that long ago.
I'd agree with him on this, but they've been pretty cavalier with timelines as of late. For us it's been maybe four weeks since "The Shrine", for the characters? Who knows. Almost the entirety of season three was supposed to take place in six months. Keller's time on Atlantis changes per episode. Somehow, six months have passed between "The Seed" and "Whispers". I'm starting to think that Atlantis is stuck in a time vortex. That, or the writer's don't use a Show Bible to keep things realistic and toss out numbers willy nilly to drive people like me crazy.
Edited: because I don't seem to grasp English grammar today.
They really do care for each other, and darn it, Jason Momoa, they like each other.
I don't know that I read the entire interview, but I remember hearing that he didn't think Ronon and McKay were friends. I kinda took that as friends that hang out. Those two have nothing in common. That doesn't prevent Ronon from feeling that brotherly teammate bond - caring about McKay. I don't think Ronon and McKay hang out much. Beckett and McKay had/have so much in common as do John and Ronon (or Teyla and Ronon). I'm not sure Ronon would consider McKay his friend (like Sheppard and Teyla are). But I think he cares about McKay.
I did notice in The Shrine he wants to help McKay because he "owes" him. A sense of obligation because Rodney has saved his life in the past or because they are teammates or because he considers himself Rodney's protector?
I was very prepared to agree with you in that I just misread what Jason was saying... then out of curiosity I looked up the interview, and yeah... it gave me the same impression the second time around. I could be way off base, but I kind of feel that the interview is really more strictly Jason's POV... rather than Jason's intrepretation of Ronon's POV? That... or I really don't agree with Jason's interpretation of Ronon's POV. Which could be the case here.
I did notice in The Shrine he wants to help McKay because he "owes" him. A sense of obligation because Rodney has saved his life in the past or because they are teammates or because he considers himself Rodney's protector?
I still haven't quite figured out what he meant by that, to be honest *g* I'm leaning towards more of the intense brotherhood/teammate bond though than any sense of obligation. The way he smiles at Rodney in the infirmary when he says Ronon's name is so very fond.
I do know there are some inconsistencies with the character, and it is partly the writer's fault, but they don't just do it with Keller. They all have the tendency to use the characters to suit the plot, rather than let the characters guide the plot.
This is true, but it's more pronounced with Keller because she has less solid character features to latch onto. From the beginning, most of the chars had particularly strong traits that were established at their introduction and hold true, even when they experience severe fits of screenwriter schizophrenia - Rodney is always brilliant and arrogant and needs to be smarter than everyone; John will go to any lengths to save a teammate; Teyla is a Pegasus native who loves her people; Ronon hates and wants to kill Wraith. So they're broadly recognizable from episode to episode, if inconsistent. Keller doesn't have a dominant trait - she's a doctor, but that doesn't inform everything she does; she's smart but not brilliant; she's uneasy off-world but that's not always relevant and inconsistent besides. It makes her hard to grab onto - for the writers as well as the audience. So the writers all invent their own characterization, and the writers who are decent at characterization (Gero, Binder) can make her appealing (if different), while in the hands of a writer who can't handle characterization (Mullie in "The Seed") she ends up having no character at all; anyone could be in her role.
I don't know... I do think that Keller has a broad and recongizable character structure, because I do recognize her from episode to episode. As the "show healer", her patients always come first. She's also not quite comfortable in her skin, which comes off as being unsure in her abilities or whininess at times.
I think what really makes her character more than a cardboard cutout are her quirks, which some writers just don't seem to be able to grasp. I notice that I like it when those like Binder and Gero bring out her sense of humor, her bravery in the face of danger, and even the unsureness in actions like her flinching (although that could come from Jewel). As for "The Seed"... yeah, sorry, she was pretty bland in that, no argument here. The first thing that comes to mind from that episode are stabby tentacles, not "Keller kicks ass."
However, I do think she has less quirks than Team Sheppard, although whether that's due to the fact that in Stargate the doctor roles are typically supporting, or a reluctance on their part to take a chance with her character.
I think the problem this season is they feel they need to use her since they've promoted her to the main cast. It was the same problem they had when trying to integrate Carson into more episodes. The design of the show just doesn't present them much opportunity to be more than doctors , so a lot of time their presence in episodes feels a little unnecessary?
They do force things to happen with the characters rather than let them take a natural progress. I'm not bitter at all that the end scene from "The Shrine" and the way it almost twisted my viewing of Keller. No.
And you'll say, 'Good work,' or grunt, or slap me on the back unnecessarily hard."
Hee! That was awesome. I'm in the middle of rewatching the episode again, but the Ronon/Rodney interaction really isn't bothering me that much. I think it's because Ronon and Rodney don't quite get each other in the way the rest of the team does, so the expression of their friendship is a little more rough and tumble.
I'm very happy with Keller being a competent and ethical doctor and saving her patients and doing better hand-to-hand than Rodney ever does!
I find it hilarious, and yet appropriate that she would take to hand-to-hand better than Rodney. And I also like that she's competent, stands her ground for her patients, and still flinches away from danger. I really do like that as a touchstone.
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Absolutely! I rant about it not infrequently. I think Rodney frequently reverts to earlier stages of character development, not just for plot reasons, but because the writers think it will get them a cheap laugh. Hey, we all revert sometimes, but I'm really tired of watching Rodney act like he did when he was still a noob.
BH said he was particularly struck by the paucity of friendship shown between Ronon and Rodney given how close Rodney was to dying not all that long ago. They may not get each other, but they do care for each other. (Awww, team....)
Reply
The cheap laughs don't really bother me most of the time, because I can see it as part of Rodney's core character. He's capable of change, and he does change, but he thinks. A lot. Maybe all of the time, which can lead to him not thinking about the task at hand -- and missing social cues, so he winds up putting his foot into his mouth, realizing that he shouldn't be talking, should not be screaming at the top of his lungs and attract an entire troupe of Hunter Wraiths.
Yes, yes, it probably is writing choices, but I like to rationalize things out via canon.
I'm more disgruntled when they do it for the sake of plot, and it's a major regression for no other point than they feel like they can because they're writers. For me, "Trinity" is a huge case of this. I honestly thought I saw a lot of character growth in season one, to the point where he wouldn't be making stupid jokes about John being his coffee maid, and would never intentionally and consciously use their friendship to meet his own agenda. Subconsciously, yeah, totally. But not deliberately and calculated.
And I think it annoys me more because when it's on screen, it's canon, and for me that's set in stone. Unless I can find a way to connect the character points in my mind, there seems to be no explanation for it. Which is probably why I write fanfic *g*
They may not get each other, but they do care for each other.
They really do care for each other, and darn it, Jason Momoa, they like each other. It was very, very apparent in "The Shrine".
given how close Rodney was to dying not all that long ago.
I'd agree with him on this, but they've been pretty cavalier with timelines as of late. For us it's been maybe four weeks since "The Shrine", for the characters? Who knows. Almost the entirety of season three was supposed to take place in six months. Keller's time on Atlantis changes per episode. Somehow, six months have passed between "The Seed" and "Whispers". I'm starting to think that Atlantis is stuck in a time vortex. That, or the writer's don't use a Show Bible to keep things realistic and toss out numbers willy nilly to drive people like me crazy.
Edited: because I don't seem to grasp English grammar today.
Reply
I don't know that I read the entire interview, but I remember hearing that he didn't think Ronon and McKay were friends. I kinda took that as friends that hang out. Those two have nothing in common. That doesn't prevent Ronon from feeling that brotherly teammate bond - caring about McKay. I don't think Ronon and McKay hang out much. Beckett and McKay had/have so much in common as do John and Ronon (or Teyla and Ronon). I'm not sure Ronon would consider McKay his friend (like Sheppard and Teyla are). But I think he cares about McKay.
I did notice in The Shrine he wants to help McKay because he "owes" him. A sense of obligation because Rodney has saved his life in the past or because they are teammates or because he considers himself Rodney's protector?
Reply
I did notice in The Shrine he wants to help McKay because he "owes" him. A sense of obligation because Rodney has saved his life in the past or because they are teammates or because he considers himself Rodney's protector?
I still haven't quite figured out what he meant by that, to be honest *g* I'm leaning towards more of the intense brotherhood/teammate bond though than any sense of obligation. The way he smiles at Rodney in the infirmary when he says Ronon's name is so very fond.
Reply
This is true, but it's more pronounced with Keller because she has less solid character features to latch onto. From the beginning, most of the chars had particularly strong traits that were established at their introduction and hold true, even when they experience severe fits of screenwriter schizophrenia - Rodney is always brilliant and arrogant and needs to be smarter than everyone; John will go to any lengths to save a teammate; Teyla is a Pegasus native who loves her people; Ronon hates and wants to kill Wraith. So they're broadly recognizable from episode to episode, if inconsistent. Keller doesn't have a dominant trait - she's a doctor, but that doesn't inform everything she does; she's smart but not brilliant; she's uneasy off-world but that's not always relevant and inconsistent besides. It makes her hard to grab onto - for the writers as well as the audience. So the writers all invent their own characterization, and the writers who are decent at characterization (Gero, Binder) can make her appealing (if different), while in the hands of a writer who can't handle characterization (Mullie in "The Seed") she ends up having no character at all; anyone could be in her role.
...Ummm I am shutting up now. Really!
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I don't know... I do think that Keller has a broad and recongizable character structure, because I do recognize her from episode to episode. As the "show healer", her patients always come first. She's also not quite comfortable in her skin, which comes off as being unsure in her abilities or whininess at times.
I think what really makes her character more than a cardboard cutout are her quirks, which some writers just don't seem to be able to grasp. I notice that I like it when those like Binder and Gero bring out her sense of humor, her bravery in the face of danger, and even the unsureness in actions like her flinching (although that could come from Jewel). As for "The Seed"... yeah, sorry, she was pretty bland in that, no argument here. The first thing that comes to mind from that episode are stabby tentacles, not "Keller kicks ass."
However, I do think she has less quirks than Team Sheppard, although whether that's due to the fact that in Stargate the doctor roles are typically supporting, or a reluctance on their part to take a chance with her character.
I think the problem this season is they feel they need to use her since they've promoted her to the main cast. It was the same problem they had when trying to integrate Carson into more episodes. The design of the show just doesn't present them much opportunity to be more than doctors , so a lot of time their presence in episodes feels a little unnecessary?
Reply
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