Religious Reflection - 21st Sunday of Ordinary Time (Cycle B - 2nd Reading)

[gold_dragontsu]

Today's second reading is the somewhat controversial Ephesians 5: 21-32. I remember my Mom told me once that she didn't like Paul too much due to this reading

Comments

[joedragons]

Good write up=) Very thought provoking

[gold_dragontsu]

Might you be refering to Literal vs. Contextual interpretations of the Bible? :}

Literal vs. Contextual probably has different meaning when considering different books of the Bible. Paul's work consists of much concrete advice on living a Christian life. In that sense, I think it mostly lends itself to a literal interpretation (but more on that later). Contrast Paul's writing with Genesis, which has two different creation accounts. Since the creation accounts have differences, that alone would be a reason to suggest that the creation stories should be interpretted contextually. If they were literal, that would mean the world was created twice in two different ways, right?

As an aside, if you ever read biblical analysis of Genesis, you'll probably come across references to J, E, D, and P... The Yahwist, Elohist, Deuteronomist, and Priestly sources, respectively. However, it may be impossible at this point to ever reconstruct all of the sources that had an impact on early scripture, or individual stories within scripture. The point is

[joedragons]

Indeed that's what I meant tho it's sylli since you used the word context(ual) several times in your original posts. ^^*

You've read the biblical analysis of Genesis?
That's beyond reading the Bible=) *hat_tip (if so)*

I think I got confused because you seemed to be defending Paul's writing by making it contextual and I read it as what you said in your fourth paragraph (the last sentence, the quote), it isn't really even worth making a deal about because those are things of the past. Deep reader I am not;)

I agree with the 5th paragraph and that's my experience as well.
Probably also why I enjoyed reading your post.

Gonna break up the replies over the day since there are 3=)
Bbiab (be back in a bit),
Joe

[gold_dragontsu]

You've read the biblical analysis of Genesis? That's beyond reading the Bible=)

*chuckles* Is it negative kudos if I haven't read the actual Bible first? ;) Actually, I haven't read a lot of biblical analysis... not enough to really talk about it, anyway. I did take a Bible as Literature course in college, which is where I first learned about the four sources initially.

~GD

[joedragons]

I'd never retract my kudos=)

That's more than the layman, I suppose.

I'm not really feeling it tonight and I'm off tomorrow for almost a week, so don't feel ignored, I'll be back on the other 4 (maybe tomorrow AM=)).
-J

[gold_dragontsu]

could you do a similar post about the 4th commandmentDo you mean that as in, you actually want me to do one? :} I guess I could, but I don't know if I could get into as deep of an analysis as I did for Ephesians. I was sort of inspired

[joedragons]

By your definitions of honor, I didn't really do anything wrong. That's probably what the priests were saying too...yeah yeah, get outta here kid;) Say some prayers;)
But that's really why I like confession (and can't call myself Catholic anymore) because to be confessed you have to be sorry...so really, you're already mostly there when confessing, unless you're just going through the motions in which case you're probably not really getting confessed...not unlike just going to Church on Christmas.

*nods* that all makes sense...what about sending a parent to jail or rehab for something they've done? I guess severity demands counter-severity?

Actually yeah, that was pretty good. You might be on to something here;)
-Joe

[gold_dragontsu]

Yeah, in our case honoring our parents was probably more like, "Don't be disobedient and take Nintendo games into school to get them stolen without your parents' permission first." Kind of comical in retrospect to look at how much grief that was at the time, but now you can essentially download any old NES game you want from the Internet. So instead of stealing from innocent 4th Graders, you can steal from the industry directly instead. ;)

so really, you're already mostly there when confessing, unless you're just going through the motions in which case you're probably not really getting confessed...not unlike just going to Church on Christmas.*nods* These days, I don't think going through the motions is a problem for most people. Getting us to do the motion in the first place is the problem. ;) Personally, I struggle with getting to Reconciliation for two reasons. First, I just find it incredibly embarrassing and uncomfortable, which is bad because I don't think those emotions have anything to do with whether I'm contrite.

[joedragons]

Or letting a friend borrow a transformer, them breaking it, and you making them pay, then lying about where you got the money, turning it into the school, having no-one claim it, only to be caught by the friends parents in casual discussion. But yeah, what I really meant was stuff like sneaking out of the corner to corner fight or doing something even when they told you not to. Not even stuff that I thought about at the time, but I could always think of some dishonor when in that booth

[gold_dragontsu]

I know Catholism is anti-death penalty, but I am not informed on what they are pro.

Well if you are anti-death, you're probably pro-life. Usually people take that to mean "against abortion", but it's not just abortion. If you execute a criminal, there are essentially two problems. First, human justice has taken the place of Godly justice. Second, the chance for repentance has been taken away, and therefore any future opportunities for good have also been taken away.

As an exaggerated example, suppose a mad scientist creates a carrier virus that harms and kills a significant portion of the population. As retribution, the scientist is executed. However, suppose the scientist was granted mercy, then subsequently reformed and went on to cure cancer?

This isn't to say the scientist should be automatically left free to go and do whatever he wants. However, totally denying someone the chance for reformation and potential future goodness is not fair. That's God's job, not ours... and we need to be humble toward God.

~GD

[joedragons]

So fine with jailtime, how do they stand on prison overcrowding and release of minor criminals back into society because of this? I guess with forgive attitude, they hope the time in prison reformed, made them reflect, etc and meanwhile get Brinks and car alarms and move to safer neighborhoods?=)

I do like the example, and how it makes me see your view crystal clear.
I was about to say what's more likely that they create another virus or a cure, until the follow up paragraph.

I also think it's interesting how there's a very fine line shown in the other post between acting as God's representative on Earth (without causing people to dislike God) and leaving things to God's judgement. I suppose it could be viewed as natural vs unnatural, but so much of humanity is unnatural...it really opens a whole another conversation thread there.
-Joe

[gold_dragontsu]

So fine with jailtime, how do they stand on prison overcrowding and release of minor criminals back into society because of this?It's definitely a difficult issue. "What do you do with unrepentent criminals?" My view is that Christianity provides worldly answers, but only if everyone subscribes to it. So if everyone followed the moral Christian path, that would be the answer to prison overcrowding: prisons rendered unnecessary! However, obviously this is not the case. So what then? God still provides an answer, just not a worldly one. Suppose the world is suddenly overrun with criminals and anarchy sets in. Again, prisons are rendered unnecessary in this case, but sort of in the reverse way. All Christians might be persecuted, hunted, and destroyed... a travesty to humanity. However, God's power still reigns over all. The most miserable things could happen on this world, but for the true believer, God still has everything in hand. Criminals could break into your house, murder your family, steal your car, bankrupt you... but for the

[gold_dragontsu]

I continue to be a guilty person to this day (thankfully not about that).

Yeah, I think you've broken the 3rd Commandment a few times. ;) However, everyone has some sinful part of their nature. Actually, someone like me, despite appearing devout and religious on the exterior is probably in the most danger. Hypocrite central. In my case, I feel if God wanted to condemn me, it would be all too easy unfortunately. I can honestly say I've tried to be a good person, but whether I actually am good by God's standards is yet to be determined...

Ultimately, everyone is in need of God's mercy. "If you, Lord, mark our sins, Lord, who can stand?" --Psalm 130: 3. So we all need God's grace, help, and forgiveness. I think the biggest danger, though, is counting too much on forgiveness. We can't do it on our own... but we also can't sit back and passively think everything will work out... The ole, "God helps those who help themselves" philosophy.

[. . .] we'd have this post? Well, maybe we would;) But what if it was Old Testiment on a tablet?If

[joedragons]

I've definately "broken" the 3rd Commandment but I could rant about it...I'm not sure if this is the place, so I apologize if I offend

Part 1 of 3

[gold_dragontsu]

Well, I'm not sure I follow everything here... But there's a big distinction in my mind between reverent prayer and blurting out "God" or "Jesus" in frustration/exasperation. When people randomly say things like, "Oh my God", in casual, everyday speech, it causes me unrest on some level. If it's uttered by a non-believer, why call upon an entity in whom you do not believe? If it's uttered by a believer, why not show respect for God? The point from my perspective is that God should not be trivialized. I've heard incredibly conservative folks who suggest that even saying "Oh my goodness" or "Geez" or even "Holy cow" should not be said. The root of such utterances may have been good... calling upon God for help in fearful or difficult times. However, now I feel it is just serving to trivialize God. Ask yourself if the average person has any devout thought process behind their words when they say such things... If the answer is, "No," then ask yourself what is accomplished when such sayings are habitually employed.

I question whether

Re: Part 1 of 3

[joedragons]

Well, sorry if I've ever caused you unrest. Nothing I do reflexively, instinctively or habitually is meant to cause anyone unrest beyond "*sigh* Oh Joe". Because I am me and I doubt the reflexive, instinctive and habits are going away.

I thought about substituting words for other words, because one time I was at an Aunt's house and I said frick and her eyes widened and I said "What?" and she said "You know what" and I didn't feel like having that conversation...but really if someone hears whatever they want then it really doesn't matter what you say. The reverse is true. If I say (or even think but that's another topic (maybe)) OMG (instead of "Oh my God") does that make it better? Clearly I have made an effort to mask the intent of my words for the sake of those who are offended but is it anything beyond that? And if I said "Gaw..." and you chose to interpret or hear "God..." then what