Religious Reflection - 21st Sunday of Ordinary Time (Cycle B - 2nd Reading)

Aug 23, 2009 13:37

Today's second reading is the somewhat controversial Ephesians 5: 21-32. I remember my Mom told me once that she didn't like Paul too much due to this reading ( Read more... )

marriage, religion, god, relationships

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Re: Part 1 of 3 joedragons September 2 2009, 17:18:20 UTC
Well, sorry if I've ever caused you unrest. Nothing I do reflexively, instinctively or habitually is meant to cause anyone unrest beyond "*sigh* Oh Joe". Because I am me and I doubt the reflexive, instinctive and habits are going away.

I thought about substituting words for other words, because one time I was at an Aunt's house and I said frick and her eyes widened and I said "What?" and she said "You know what" and I didn't feel like having that conversation...but really if someone hears whatever they want then it really doesn't matter what you say. The reverse is true. If I say (or even think but that's another topic (maybe)) OMG (instead of "Oh my God") does that make it better? Clearly I have made an effort to mask the intent of my words for the sake of those who are offended but is it anything beyond that? And if I said "Gaw..." and you chose to interpret or hear "God..." then what?

I also believe that it's not my place to tell someone how to pray, so we'll have to agree to disagree there=)

Eating is an interesting topic, because of the FDA's calorie count and portion sizing, I wonder if most of us are gluttons everyday. That may actually hit on some of the points that I just made above, but I'm not going to go there.

I think the difference in my mind is generally we are not in situations where we would procreate or murder easily. Every step there is a conscious choice. I'm still squeemish with knives because I may accidentally stab someone (including myself)...but that does show conscious thought towards (or away from) hurting. Speech is just opening your mouth. So maybe it's the only (or top rated) sin that can be habitual/reactive/instinctual in my mind. Coveting is another good example. It's easy to try and not covet, but generally it's like you see something you want it, boom, it's already done, no regret not changing. I believe we learned (or were taught) in school that coveting is actually the act of not only wanting something but disliking someone because they have it or wishing they didn't so you were equal or wishing they'd give it to you (or stealing?). So...it's also possible that commandment 3 is the hardest to contextualize (besides arguably #5).

As for the last paragraph, I reflected on this after I replied but before I read this. I guess I am living proof against what you say. I never made a conscious choice to throw God's name around, nor do I disrespect it, but if I am hit by a hammer I may curse. Then I feel incredibly guilty (sometimes after the pain wears off) thus the original sorry feeling, but my intent was never to sin. But, if it's worse, I can see why you'd feel unrest=9

Lets see if this posts, it'll be the last before we go.
<3
-J

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Re: Part 1 of 3 gold_dragontsu September 7 2009, 18:53:04 UTC
I see it as dangerous to accept the instinctual too easily. A serial rapist probably acts mainly on animalistic instinct... either sexual instinct or "dominance" instinct. I doubt there are too many rapists who originally woke up and consciously thought, "Well, I don't have any sexual desires or desires for power, but I think I'll just become a sexual preditor today." However, does that mean the instinctual rapist isn't hurting the women he's abused simply because he's been acting on instinct and not based on a fully conscious choice?

From my perspective, some of the key teachings of the Church are about self-denial. It's against instinct to wait until marriage before having sex, or to give away resources to the less fortunate, or to show mercy to those who have the potential to cause great harm or destruction. At some point, though, a society has to say, "Okay, are we going to just be animals, or are we going to be civilized?"

Clearly I have made an effort to mask the intent of my words for the sake of those who are offended but is it anything beyond that?

No, it's not... Not from my perspective, anyway. For those of us who know what OMG tends to stand for, it doesn't help when people use that as a "substitute". If you use "Engelbert Humperdinck" instead, that's maybe another story. I'd rather someone drop an F-bomb or S-bomb than say OMG. If you smash your hand with a hammer, why not just say, "Ouch!"? In the moment of frustration, are we too weak to control our language? Is it good that we're so easily weakened that we cannot control ourselves? Does that potentially point to other possible issues?

I never made a conscious choice to throw God's name around

Did you ever make a conscious decision to not throw God's name around? :)

~GD

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Re: Part 1 of 3 joedragons September 11 2009, 17:48:09 UTC
I see what you're saying but that wasn't quite what I was talking about, so I agree. However, I just saw a movie where a guy was picking up runaway red heads who had no money at a bus station where he worked as night guard, he would charm them, buy them a meal, help them get a job, basically make them feel wanted, date them, propose, but if they ever tried to contact their families, stop it and finally murder them. Before he did he was picking up another red-head, so was always going out with someone. While the behavior was portrayed as habitual instinctive (at the end, they found out the mother had red hair and he was subconsciously trying to fill her shoes with these girls) but the conscious thought to get another woman BEFORE killing one was the issue.

So I guess that's where I'm coming from. A purely instrinctual reaction has no conscious thought so cannot really be controlled. Even a minor conscious thought, means you had a chance to do something and yet you didn't and went ahead. After the fact, for serial criminals, it's a matter of remorse. That guy obviously didn't feel any or he wouldn't be dating someone else in advance of killing his previous.

Maybe this is another agree to disagree point.

I agree with paragraph two but outside rape (aka one party unwilling) there's conscious thought, chance for one of the two parties to say no, etc.

Brings up another interesting topic, on an episode of Family Guy they were attempting to have Sex Ed but some of the parents didn't want their children taught about birth control. This didn't stop anything really but it and this make me wonder how the Church feels about teaching about birth control. I mean you're not supposed to be having sex before marriage anyway, but if you are sinning, is it any worse to use birth control while sinning (2 sins don't make a non-sin...I guess it'd be more sin, if not bigger sin?)?

So really, it's about being offended and not about the act? If I said GMO instead, I'd know it was reverse but might lose something in translation. If I said MOG, I'd almost certainly lose most (and maybe myself;)). I could be more clever (at least if consciously), however, the question is does that do anything for anyone but others...and should I be more concerned about them than me. I is generic I btw (aka "one"), because I (Joe) am not that concerned.

Yeah, it probably does point to other issues, and that's really why I mentioned it to get thoughts on that.

When around others that it offends, but personally I don't think it's a big deal (see really quick prayer in the initial, which you disagreed with), so that probably influences my subconscious and thus my instinct. Hope you don't think any less of me, but you probably already knew that by now=)

L8rz,
Joe

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Re: Part 1 of 3 gold_dragontsu September 19 2009, 01:29:47 UTC
About birth control, the acceptable form of birth control from the Church perspective is natural family planning (i.e. tracking the woman's fertility cycle and having sex during non-fertile times). Other forms are not accepted (birth control pills, condoms, vasectomy, etc.).

I would say it's not really worth considering scenarios entailing, "Well, if you're going to sin, at least sin this way." The initial sin should just be avoided right off the bat, and the problem is solved. If someone really feels as though they simply have to have premarital relations, maybe the problem isn't with the level of sin, but the person's lack of self control.

I have trouble with the birth control teaching and the fact that you cannot be married and in good position in the Church if you do not want to raise a family. However, I cannot think of any Church teaching that is meaningless or without reason, including those regarding birth control and marriage. There are practical reasons behind just about every teaching, whether or not people are humble enough to try and understand them.

So really, it's about being offended and not about the act?

Okay, yeah, good point. Ultimately, things should be done for the sake of love and respect for God and not the whims of other humans. However, ask yourself if it's worth trying not to upset someone who is seeking to follow a righteous path? If a man knows his wife is on a diet, but doesn't care to avoid eating ice cream right in front of her, that's just kind of inconsiderate. The wife is trying to take care of herself and being responsible. Meanwhile, the husband is acting obliviously toward that fact, and potentially creating unneeded temptation or at least dejected feelings ("great, I have to eat rice cakes... you get ice cream..."). One could argue that the woman should be strong enough so that the man can eat whatever he wants and she can stick with her diet... But I still think it's inconsiderate anyway.

As for me, my belief is that God is the creator of everything, including us. Regardless of the existence of the 2nd Commandment, I still think such a Creator should be treated respectfully in name... not just blurted out in frustration, anger, surprise, amazement, etc. In some ways, people's casual usage of God's name in common expressions probably indicates a discouraging microcosm of the casual (if any) relationship people have with God. Maybe I'm old fashioned or too legalistic, but these are my reasons. I wonder what the reasons are that people have for choosing to use God's name casually. My guess is they either have no reason at all (habit) or they're just doing it for shock value. Are those worthy justifications for a certain type of behavior?

I could be more clever (at least if consciously), however, the question is does that do anything for anyone but others...

I imagine someone who is going to that much trouble would realize, "Hey, why not abandon OMG, MOG, GOM, etc. and use something that isn't connotated!" But you hit it on the head. People aren't concerned.

As for people who blurt out "God" as a "quick prayer" when they are upset, I wonder why it's just a quick prayer? Why don't they pray more consistently and try to actively search for the peace God offers? Then maybe outbursts wouldn't be necessary at all.

BTW, speaking of hypocrasy, the above paragraph is hypocrite central. Ask me if I pray all of the time, or whether the praying I do consistently puts me at peace. Matthew 23: 1-5

~GD

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