Well, I am speechless; this is the most interesting posting and conversation I have read since the beginning of the season. It reflects exactly my feelings and thoughts about it and I don't have anything intelligent to add except a little something that crept up to me when I was watching "When the Levee Breaks": could there be a little bit of jealousy - in top of the denial - on Sam's part? Could it be that the whole idea that his brother is not only (or according to Sam at that time "had been") the best hunter there was, that he was a man worth saving by angels from the fires of hell( we didn't know everything at that time), that he had a mission appointed by that same God he had been praying for all those years and who had not given him - to his understanding - an answer… was too much for him and his sense of self? I was thinking that most of the time last season when Sam was putting down Dean, that was actually his ultimate goal (albeit unconsciously) and that what he really wanted was to steal the “glory” that would come out of
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I think there was very much an unconscious measure of jealousy on Sam's part in S4, which IMHO comes from a very deepseated insecurity that Sam doesn't measure up. Sam has long since had a habit of putting Dean down whenever Dean's actions become a "threat" to something Sam takes pride in
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What can I say? you got it all right there. I think Sam's sense of self has been fueled by his brother's dedication and admiration. His brother was ready to do anything for him and always let him believe he was the "smarts". I'm not lying when I tell you that first time, with the EMF was a stab for me because a good brother, a loving brother should have praised it -even if he thought it worthless- but he couldn't bring himself up to it. I think Sam resents Dean's personality as much as a child resents his parents' during adolescence. Dean simply cannot do well by Sam. All of the things that endear Dean to us, irritate Sam. But yeah, I see light at the end of this tunnel and it's not hellfire. I think Sam actually turned a point. Matured and decided he has to grow up and has to do it in his own time. For as painful as it is for both of them, Dean, at least recognizes it to be true. This season is going to rock!
I've read meta that theorized that Dean deliberately downplayed his own intelligence and I can see that as being believable, especially since Dean wouldn't have cared about the same things that Sam did in displaying it. Dean would have been impressed by tactical rather than strategic developments - developing the salt shotgun shells, for one, which it's implied that Dean came up with and which he seemed quite pleased about. That's clever and would have had an immediate application within their lives. Stuff like the SATs or finals? Not so much. Getting an A on that Algebra test wouldn't likely have helped him ensure that his father and Sam stayed safe on a werewolf hunt, for instance. So I think it's a matter of Dean's prioritization and about him being sensitive enough to Sam's buttons that he didn't mind letting Sam shine there
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I wish I could express myself in such a beautiful way as you do. English is not exactly my mother language and then again, I haven't had the opportunity to put my opinions into words - seeing as much of the fandom does not look at things really, really deep (sorry, I'm not being snobbish here, I swear...)- anyway, thank you! You just made my week! If you don't mind, may I befriend you? Only if, of course, it's all right with your ongoing policy or whatever. (And, then again, how do I go about that ?!)*perplexed*
See, I had no idea that English wasn't your native language! I need to learn to read German for school and I've studied various languages off and on for the past decade. I've a huge amount of respect for anyone who is fluent in more than one tongue!
I'm not sure that I'm all that deep a thinker, but I do like to ramble. :) Please feel free to friend me, I always love meeting new people!
(Do you mean how do you friend someone? I know that if you go into their profile, there's usually an option to Add Friend, if that helps.)
I think you've got a great point about why Sam seemed to look down on Dean. It very much is a parental thing, though given the twisted relationship dynamics of the Winchesters, I think it goes beyond that as well. There was a great meta posted last spring about Sam transferring his strife with John onto Dean after John's death and the Oedipal nuances that are displayed between the three of them and I think this very much plays into that. Sam wanted his father to acknowledge him as an equal (or a superior), but John's death precluded that option. He wanted Dean to side with him against their father when he thought that John was in the wrong, but when he came to understand John and his reasoning better, he wanted to take John's place - and that included having Dean answer to him. Which, Dean being Dean, he was going to reject as a concept.That was pretty fascinating and twisted end of last season when Sam started remaking the John/Dean relationship and the Winchester family right in front of Dean's nose, with him as John and Adam as him
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4x19 is pretty important in terms of reliving the Winchester triad drama. I'm not sure that Sam would ever have accepted Adam as a replacement for Dean, but I imagine that Adam was easier to deal with in a number of ways. To my mind, that episode underscores the Sam-John connection and also Sam's control needs - he obviously can't control Dean, which discomforts him. He can control Adam, who even seems to welcome it in a mentor sort of way, which had to have been a relief. Seriously, all throughout S4, I keep getting the idea that Sam constantly had a refrain of "why won't they just listen to me" running through his head
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It's why I can't buy meta that posits Dean as a doormat, eternally bound to the whims of Sam or John.
Snort. Yeah, I hate that stuff.
As well as wincest of the eternally bottom Dean variety which is its literary corollary.
I think it is a fundamental misread of the character of Dean.
But people are very attached to it. And you can see already with some critiques and comments on those critiques of early Season 5 Dean that it is making some people very anxious that the Dean who always gives into Sam and puts him first no longer exists. It's like their entire template for Dean has now imploded.
I guess they didn't take Dean seriously in 4.21 when he told Bobby that he'd rather see Sam dead than turn himself into a monster.
It's amazing how 30 years of resisting Hell can help repair even the soft parts of someone's backbone.
Doormat!Dean is the bane of my existence. I can't stand the stuff. Same with broken!Dean; seriously, it took the man thirty flipping years to break in Hell. Thirty years! I'm pretty sure that whatever your baddie of the day torments him with over a matter of hours isn't going to be enough to break him just so you can write a scene with Dean sobbing into big!strong!manly!Sammy's arms about how horrible it was.
Argh.
I don't do much Wincest because I need several things in place before I'll even buy it as believable and even then it needs to have a compelling story and characterization for me to be hooked. I have read some and enjoyed it, but it's a rare bird for me
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I have less of an issue with bottom!Dean though because I don't equate being the bottom with being the submissive and I can see that Dean might have an issue being the aggressor in a sexual relationship with his four years younger brother. In fact, if Dean IS comfortable with it off the bat, then I'm done with the story. So much of Dean is wrapped up in being the protective older brother that I can't see how him pushing for sex with Sam would be anything but molestation in his mind and frankly that's so far out of character for me that I'll never be able to buy it. And while the aggressor in a sexual relationship =/= the top, I can see Dean thinking that or being worried that he'd hurt Sam and so refraining from topping unless Sam explicitly told him that he wanted it.I view Wincest as strictly AU since it seems completely non-canonical to me - things like Wee!cest are entirely out of character, IMO
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Oh, all Wincest is very much AU. The fact that they've actually gone out to confirm that in canon is at once amusing and dismaying.
Needy, desperate Dean does things to me. Things like triggering rage and annoyance and not anything particularly positive, but it does do things. It wouldn't be so bad, I don't think, if I didn't view that whole dynamic as being directly counter to Dean's character growth and, frankly, not even that in character for early in the series proper. It's not that there's anything wrong with a character being submissive in bed, it's that it's always Dean and so many negative stereotypes are typically read in along with the submissive behavior and it's so contrary to where we're seeing him going that it just kind of breaks my heart. I want Dean to be able to stand alone and be comfortable in his own skin. In so many of those submissive!Dean stories, he's very much unable to do so, he's always off-kilter and unbalanced
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I do think that Sam as a vessel is still a potential issue to watch out for, but I'm hoping that they don't go there. If we actually got evil!Sam, I'd want to have evil!Sam. The Boy King storyline revisited, not Sam being possessed by Lucifer. They've already played out the "kill me for the sake of the world" issue.
So they've done it in an interesting way - by making consent the issue. And absolutely negating the "kill me for the sake of the world" storyline. Because that won't work. So it's not a repeat.
Plus now we'll have twin storylines with Dean and Sam and the issue of consent.
You write such interesting meta. Even though I don't always agree with you, they're a pleasure to read.
About the EMF meter, I would have mocked if my own brother had made it. It's a big sister's duty! Dean frequently mocks and teases Sam about being a geek or a girl and nobody complains.
On the destiny thing - I don't see Sam as hogging the glory and being jealous at all. I think both brothers have a saviour complex. They both felt guity about different things. Dean saw his rescue from hell as a second chance to get it right after breaking the first seal. Sam saw a chance to turn his tainted blood and past history of being the reason for Mary and Jess' death into something good. Also a chance to make up for his failure to save Dean from hell.
They both grabbed at the chance for redemption.
I agree the Sam-Dean relationship will be fascinating to watch. It has so many layers and boy, the writers have got pretty rich material there. I cannot believe those who claim that this relationship is getting stale.
Thanks for the compliment, even if you disagree. :)
The EMF meter was just one example and if it had been just the one, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Unfortunately, though, Sam also knocked Dean's ability to do research a couple of times in S1 and was shocked that Dean knew about sirens and read Vonnegut in S4, among a few other examples. To my mind too, there's a difference in teasing someone for being a geek and teasing them about being stupid - the one has a connotation of intelligence to it - it's a good thing to be a geek - the other? Well, you're not going to find anyone who's declaring it's a good thing to be unlearned anytime soon.
I view Dean's teasing Sam for being a girl to be just as neutral an issue as Sam teasing Dean about being butch. That's pretty normal fraternal teasing, in my mind. The main difference about Sam's put downs about Dean's intelligence is that he doesn't seem to get that Dean actually is smart, even if his particular brand of intelligence doesn't mesh up with the world of academia
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See, I had no idea that English wasn't your native language! I need to learn to read German for school and I've studied various languages off and on for the past decade. I've a huge amount of respect for anyone who is fluent in more than one tongue!
I'm not sure that I'm all that deep a thinker, but I do like to ramble. :) Please feel free to friend me, I always love meeting new people!
(Do you mean how do you friend someone? I know that if you go into their profile, there's usually an option to Add Friend, if that helps.)
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Snort. Yeah, I hate that stuff.
As well as wincest of the eternally bottom Dean variety which is its literary corollary.
I think it is a fundamental misread of the character of Dean.
But people are very attached to it. And you can see already with some critiques and comments on those critiques of early Season 5 Dean that it is making some people very anxious that the Dean who always gives into Sam and puts him first no longer exists. It's like their entire template for Dean has now imploded.
I guess they didn't take Dean seriously in 4.21 when he told Bobby that he'd rather see Sam dead than turn himself into a monster.
It's amazing how 30 years of resisting Hell can help repair even the soft parts of someone's backbone.
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Argh.
I don't do much Wincest because I need several things in place before I'll even buy it as believable and even then it needs to have a compelling story and characterization for me to be hooked. I have read some and enjoyed it, but it's a rare bird for me ( ... )
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Whoops - probably obvious but that was supposed to say Season 4.
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Needy, desperate Dean does things to me. Things like triggering rage and annoyance and not anything particularly positive, but it does do things. It wouldn't be so bad, I don't think, if I didn't view that whole dynamic as being directly counter to Dean's character growth and, frankly, not even that in character for early in the series proper. It's not that there's anything wrong with a character being submissive in bed, it's that it's always Dean and so many negative stereotypes are typically read in along with the submissive behavior and it's so contrary to where we're seeing him going that it just kind of breaks my heart. I want Dean to be able to stand alone and be comfortable in his own skin. In so many of those submissive!Dean stories, he's very much unable to do so, he's always off-kilter and unbalanced ( ... )
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So they've done it in an interesting way - by making consent the issue. And absolutely negating the "kill me for the sake of the world" storyline. Because that won't work. So it's not a repeat.
Plus now we'll have twin storylines with Dean and Sam and the issue of consent.
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About the EMF meter, I would have mocked if my own brother had made it. It's a big sister's duty! Dean frequently mocks and teases Sam about being a geek or a girl and nobody complains.
On the destiny thing - I don't see Sam as hogging the glory and being jealous at all. I think both brothers have a saviour complex. They both felt guity about different things. Dean saw his rescue from hell as a second chance to get it right after breaking the first seal. Sam saw a chance to turn his tainted blood and past history of being the reason for Mary and Jess' death into something good. Also a chance to make up for his failure to save Dean from hell.
They both grabbed at the chance for redemption.
I agree the Sam-Dean relationship will be fascinating to watch. It has so many layers and boy, the writers have got pretty rich material there. I cannot believe those who claim that this relationship is getting stale.
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The EMF meter was just one example and if it had been just the one, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Unfortunately, though, Sam also knocked Dean's ability to do research a couple of times in S1 and was shocked that Dean knew about sirens and read Vonnegut in S4, among a few other examples. To my mind too, there's a difference in teasing someone for being a geek and teasing them about being stupid - the one has a connotation of intelligence to it - it's a good thing to be a geek - the other? Well, you're not going to find anyone who's declaring it's a good thing to be unlearned anytime soon.
I view Dean's teasing Sam for being a girl to be just as neutral an issue as Sam teasing Dean about being butch. That's pretty normal fraternal teasing, in my mind. The main difference about Sam's put downs about Dean's intelligence is that he doesn't seem to get that Dean actually is smart, even if his particular brand of intelligence doesn't mesh up with the world of academia ( ... )
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