Oh, all Wincest is very much AU. The fact that they've actually gone out to confirm that in canon is at once amusing and dismaying.
Needy, desperate Dean does things to me. Things like triggering rage and annoyance and not anything particularly positive, but it does do things. It wouldn't be so bad, I don't think, if I didn't view that whole dynamic as being directly counter to Dean's character growth and, frankly, not even that in character for early in the series proper. It's not that there's anything wrong with a character being submissive in bed, it's that it's always Dean and so many negative stereotypes are typically read in along with the submissive behavior and it's so contrary to where we're seeing him going that it just kind of breaks my heart. I want Dean to be able to stand alone and be comfortable in his own skin. In so many of those submissive!Dean stories, he's very much unable to do so, he's always off-kilter and unbalanced.
For for the bottom issue, I think it would depend on where you are at in the story when it starts up. I can't see pre-series at all. The concept actually rather squicks me. It can be done well, I've seen it be done well, but thank you, DNW. I don't think Dean would so much have an issue constantly bottoming unless other issues were coming up at the same time. It's sort of like smart!Dean, to my mind. Dean is smart, but he generally ignored Sam's generally teasing snipes when it came to Dean's intelligence right up until S4, when for the first time, we saw that it actually started to annoy him. IMHO, it's a similar concept with this - if he believed that they were generally equals, I think he'd be fine with it. If he was getting the impression that Sam was trying to put him in a subordinate position or was treating him like John did, it would start to rankle and probably would come across as an insult.
I never thought that Dean would have to kill Sam. I'm pretty firmly convinced that they'll both live at the end of the series, especially since there are rumors about season 6. It would be hard to have S6 if they both died in S5, after all.
I do think that Sam as a vessel is still a potential issue to watch out for, but I'm hoping that they don't go there. If we actually got evil!Sam, I'd want to have evil!Sam. The Boy King storyline revisited, not Sam being possessed by Lucifer. They've already played out the "kill me for the sake of the world" issue. They did it with John in DT, they did it with Sam in BUaBS - I'm ready for something else now.
One of my hopes for S5 is for Dean and Sam to really get to know each other. I know I've said it before, but it never fails to strike me how very poorly the brothers really know each other. I mean, superficially, they know each other quite well and obviously they love one another, but their true, core selves? Sam has a terrible impression of Dean and Dean kept putting Sam up on a pedestal, it's why they had such terrible miscommunication in S4. Sam believing Dean to be weak or ineffectual is nothing new, look at his rueful "he means well" comment in Hunted, for instance, when he's talking about why he left Dean in the middle of the night. And Dean? Dean should have been calling Sam out in S3 for his really terrible plans to save Dean's life, not to mention Sam's occasionally rather horrid behavior in earlier seasons.
So, yeah. I'm wanting Dean to get to know Sam, warts and all. And for Sam to really learn to recognize who Dean is - including the strength that has made him uncomfortable in the past.
I do think that Sam as a vessel is still a potential issue to watch out for, but I'm hoping that they don't go there. If we actually got evil!Sam, I'd want to have evil!Sam. The Boy King storyline revisited, not Sam being possessed by Lucifer. They've already played out the "kill me for the sake of the world" issue.
So they've done it in an interesting way - by making consent the issue. And absolutely negating the "kill me for the sake of the world" storyline. Because that won't work. So it's not a repeat.
Plus now we'll have twin storylines with Dean and Sam and the issue of consent.
Needy, desperate Dean does things to me. Things like triggering rage and annoyance and not anything particularly positive, but it does do things. It wouldn't be so bad, I don't think, if I didn't view that whole dynamic as being directly counter to Dean's character growth and, frankly, not even that in character for early in the series proper. It's not that there's anything wrong with a character being submissive in bed, it's that it's always Dean and so many negative stereotypes are typically read in along with the submissive behavior and it's so contrary to where we're seeing him going that it just kind of breaks my heart. I want Dean to be able to stand alone and be comfortable in his own skin. In so many of those submissive!Dean stories, he's very much unable to do so, he's always off-kilter and unbalanced.
For for the bottom issue, I think it would depend on where you are at in the story when it starts up. I can't see pre-series at all. The concept actually rather squicks me. It can be done well, I've seen it be done well, but thank you, DNW. I don't think Dean would so much have an issue constantly bottoming unless other issues were coming up at the same time. It's sort of like smart!Dean, to my mind. Dean is smart, but he generally ignored Sam's generally teasing snipes when it came to Dean's intelligence right up until S4, when for the first time, we saw that it actually started to annoy him. IMHO, it's a similar concept with this - if he believed that they were generally equals, I think he'd be fine with it. If he was getting the impression that Sam was trying to put him in a subordinate position or was treating him like John did, it would start to rankle and probably would come across as an insult.
I never thought that Dean would have to kill Sam. I'm pretty firmly convinced that they'll both live at the end of the series, especially since there are rumors about season 6. It would be hard to have S6 if they both died in S5, after all.
I do think that Sam as a vessel is still a potential issue to watch out for, but I'm hoping that they don't go there. If we actually got evil!Sam, I'd want to have evil!Sam. The Boy King storyline revisited, not Sam being possessed by Lucifer. They've already played out the "kill me for the sake of the world" issue. They did it with John in DT, they did it with Sam in BUaBS - I'm ready for something else now.
One of my hopes for S5 is for Dean and Sam to really get to know each other. I know I've said it before, but it never fails to strike me how very poorly the brothers really know each other. I mean, superficially, they know each other quite well and obviously they love one another, but their true, core selves? Sam has a terrible impression of Dean and Dean kept putting Sam up on a pedestal, it's why they had such terrible miscommunication in S4. Sam believing Dean to be weak or ineffectual is nothing new, look at his rueful "he means well" comment in Hunted, for instance, when he's talking about why he left Dean in the middle of the night. And Dean? Dean should have been calling Sam out in S3 for his really terrible plans to save Dean's life, not to mention Sam's occasionally rather horrid behavior in earlier seasons.
So, yeah. I'm wanting Dean to get to know Sam, warts and all. And for Sam to really learn to recognize who Dean is - including the strength that has made him uncomfortable in the past.
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So they've done it in an interesting way - by making consent the issue. And absolutely negating the "kill me for the sake of the world" storyline. Because that won't work. So it's not a repeat.
Plus now we'll have twin storylines with Dean and Sam and the issue of consent.
Reply
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