What Dean hasn't done is recognize the fact that he's only out of Hell because he broke. Sam had given up on saving him. Zachariah wanted the first seal to break and likely was the force who delayed the order to save him until it was too late. The fact that Dean broke in Hell was the only factor that led to his eventual rescue.
Why do you say that? I think Dean came to that realization after 4.16, when the sense of self he had regained after 4.1, when Castiel told him "We Have Work for you to do," was entirely overthrown and turned on its head. And he realized then and there that he was only saved from hell because he broke and opened the first seal - which is why his depression becomes more profound. And why, the only way to rescue him from the implications of all that, is for Zach to magic him into a different persona, where he leaves all that weight behind for a little while.
Dean considered himself unworthy of being saved all the way back from 4x01, and that was before he got his memories of what had happened in Hell back
( ... )
And he realized then and there that he was only saved from hell because he broke and opened the first seal - which is why his depression becomes more profound.
I sort of agree with this. I do think that Dean believes that the only reason he was rescued was because the angels have work for him to do, but he had no way of knowing at the time that the angels would wait for him to break before sallying forth to his aid. Even Castiel didn't know, which meant that he unwittingly reinforced the idea that Dean just hadn't held out long enough.
To me, that's the real crux of the issue. Dean knows that he's only important because he broke. However, Castiel said that they set forth "as soon as we discovered Lilith's plans for you", which in turn implies that they set out to save him before he broke. That means that if Dean hadn't broken, the angels would eventually have saved him in order to prevent the first seal from breaking. However, that's not the case - Zachariah wanted him to break, and thus likely prevented any assistance from
( ... )
don't think he had his full memories back in 4x01 because of how painfully normal he was. If Dean had really remembered all of Hell, I'm not seeing how porn would have been near the top of his list in terms of prioritization.
I remember reading something last year about how people emerging from extremely high pressure, constant crisis situations like intense ongoing war zones and who have been traumatized are able to hold it together initially, even though with some difficulty, reflecting a sense of normalcy. But as time goes on in their now unpressured state, their personality starts fracturing into pieces.
That made sense to me in terms of Dean's response - though I imagine that everyone going through it has their own unique permutation of it.
Dean hadn't had much luck with opening up to Sam in S4; his two short confessions about Hell had been responded to with Sam's "boo hoo" speech and an immediate slide in how Sam perceived him. Prior to 4x10, Sam seemed to feel Dean capable - after 4x11, he seemed to have no faith in
( ... )
I think I've read the meta that you're referring to. Something like Dean would have been acclimated to Hell as his "norm" setting, therefore as terrible as it would have seemed to us, his perspective of a normal situation would have adjusted to it?
I get the point and agree that it's a valid suggestion, but I don't buy it personally. My main reason for declining to believe in it is that Dean got so much worse after Yellow Fever - he went downhill fairly quickly. We've all of one episode where Sam makes a comment about Dean drinking too much, and it comes as no surprise that it's in Wishful Thinking, not long at all after Yellow Fever. What instigated this fall in his ability to cope if not for him regaining his memories?
Mind, TPTB kinda screwed the pooch in terms of Dean's PTSD storyline big time. It's entirely possible that they meant to imply that Dean had remembered all along but didn't say anything, but if that was their intent, they did a pretty piss-poor job of demonstrating it, IMHO.
She was the perfect subordinate for him: clever, capable, and more than willing to follow Sam's lead. She was Sam's idolized version of Dean, a person who loved him, respected him, admired him, and thought he was doing all the right things.Excellent point and I think it says a lot about Sam, Dean and how Sam views their relationship. In flashbacks (and in the show itself) we've seen Dean acting as caretaker for Sam; providing food, encouraging him through gentle ribbing and praise, physically and verbally defending him and the like. Ruby does all of these things with the extra-added bonuses of sex, demonic knowledge and never disagreeing. Similarly, the only other time Sam was without Dean for an extended period, i.e. college, Sam found Jess who was a similar Dean-replacement that fit all of Sam's college needs as opposed to his hunting ones. The fact that he lied to Jess the entire time they were together and jerked Ruby around and left her to be tortured kind of says disturbing things about how Sam views his relationship with
( ... )
Oh, I definitely think that Ruby had a role model in place when she changed up her personality. She needed to distract Sam from finding Dean and the best way to do that was, well, to give him another "Dean". And you're right - she was Dean 2.0, a Dean who offered all the comfort but none of the embarrassing older brother habits. A Dean who was smart and a good fighter - but completely subordinate to Sam. And forget 4x14 for being slashy and promoting the Wincest, the fact that Sam started to sleep with his Dean substitute? Infinitely the most slashy thing that has ever aired on this show.
I'd argue though that all of this was subconscious on Sam's part. Definitely conscious on Ruby's part, but very subconscious on Sam's side. If he'd ever realized exactly what Ruby had been doing, I'd be amazed if he wasn't squicked out beyond all measure.
The really evil side of me REALLY wants to see this at some point in S5. *cough*I can't fold Sam's treatment of Ruby into his treatment of Dean and Jess though. Sam had extremely
( ... )
Oh, it was completely conscious on Ruby's part, no doubt about that. In IKWDLS, Sam says that Ruby said everything Dean would which is true except for, you know, encouraging Sam to drink demon blood and get his psychic freak on.
I think though Sam lying to Jess vs. Dean blurting the truth to Cassie is very indicitive of their personalities and issues throughout the series. Sam is always holding little bits of himself back and lying because of a fear of rejection and it always bites him in the ass. In part this is because the lies endanger the person lied to, but also because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If my boyfriend/brother/whatever lied to me continuously, how could he expect me to trust him about anything else? Dean, meanwhile, is shit at lying to people he cares about and thus keeps offering the secrets of his heart up to people who stomp on it with the full knowledge that he will still be there for him the second they need his help.
Yup. The whole thing with Ruby got me because I never understood how he didn't see through her game. I sort of chocked that up to a dumb!Winchester moment, much like how Sam and Dean kept trusting Bela with no reason in S3. It doesn't make any sense but the writers put it in anyway to move the plot along, no matter how OOC it is.
I do think that Sam tends to be more secretive than Dean, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. I'd rather not get my heart stomped on repeatedly, if you know what I mean. Obviously, it becomes an issue when you're playing with fire, such as Sam's secret keeping in S4.
Dean's being completely unable to lie to anyone he cares about for a significant period of time is something I find rather endearing, but it really does have to suck.
By not telling her, he was showing that he cared in a way because it was a protective measure.
I don't know that I agree with that.
I think he omitted telling her the truth because of the freak aspect - he was trying really hard for normal during that time - and telling her about his non normal past would have spoiled the illusion he was working so hard for.
I don't doubt that was part of it as well, but to my mind, preseries!Sam would have been of the opinion that no one would want to know about this stuff, that knowing only would bring heartache and pain and more things to be frightened about. Sam would have remembered finding out the truth and I get the impression that he very much regretted it and would have preferred to have remained ignorant. So absolutely, there's a measure of wanting to disassociate himself from his past and anything he'd consider to be "not normal" but at the same time, I think he was letting his own perceptions cloud his judgment.
Which is part of why I'm so fond of stories where Jess survives, learns the truth, and is utterly fascinated by the supernatural and becomes a hunter herself. *g*
Why do you say that? I think Dean came to that realization after 4.16, when the sense of self he had regained after 4.1, when Castiel told him "We Have Work for you to do," was entirely overthrown and turned on its head. And he realized then and there that he was only saved from hell because he broke and opened the first seal - which is why his depression becomes more profound. And why, the only way to rescue him from the implications of all that, is for Zach to magic him into a different persona, where he leaves all that weight behind for a little while.
Dean considered himself unworthy of being saved all the way back from 4x01, and that was before he got his memories of what had happened in Hell back ( ... )
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I sort of agree with this. I do think that Dean believes that the only reason he was rescued was because the angels have work for him to do, but he had no way of knowing at the time that the angels would wait for him to break before sallying forth to his aid. Even Castiel didn't know, which meant that he unwittingly reinforced the idea that Dean just hadn't held out long enough.
To me, that's the real crux of the issue. Dean knows that he's only important because he broke. However, Castiel said that they set forth "as soon as we discovered Lilith's plans for you", which in turn implies that they set out to save him before he broke. That means that if Dean hadn't broken, the angels would eventually have saved him in order to prevent the first seal from breaking. However, that's not the case - Zachariah wanted him to break, and thus likely prevented any assistance from ( ... )
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I remember reading something last year about how people emerging from extremely high pressure, constant crisis situations like intense ongoing war zones and who have been traumatized are able to hold it together initially, even though with some difficulty, reflecting a sense of normalcy. But as time goes on in their now unpressured state, their personality starts fracturing into pieces.
That made sense to me in terms of Dean's response - though I imagine that everyone going through it has their own unique permutation of it.
Dean hadn't had much luck with opening up to Sam in S4; his two short confessions about Hell had been responded to with Sam's "boo hoo" speech and an immediate slide in how Sam perceived him. Prior to 4x10, Sam seemed to feel Dean capable - after 4x11, he seemed to have no faith in ( ... )
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I get the point and agree that it's a valid suggestion, but I don't buy it personally. My main reason for declining to believe in it is that Dean got so much worse after Yellow Fever - he went downhill fairly quickly. We've all of one episode where Sam makes a comment about Dean drinking too much, and it comes as no surprise that it's in Wishful Thinking, not long at all after Yellow Fever. What instigated this fall in his ability to cope if not for him regaining his memories?
Mind, TPTB kinda screwed the pooch in terms of Dean's PTSD storyline big time. It's entirely possible that they meant to imply that Dean had remembered all along but didn't say anything, but if that was their intent, they did a pretty piss-poor job of demonstrating it, IMHO.
It became an opportunity for ( ... )
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I'd argue though that all of this was subconscious on Sam's part. Definitely conscious on Ruby's part, but very subconscious on Sam's side. If he'd ever realized exactly what Ruby had been doing, I'd be amazed if he wasn't squicked out beyond all measure.
The really evil side of me REALLY wants to see this at some point in S5. *cough*I can't fold Sam's treatment of Ruby into his treatment of Dean and Jess though. Sam had extremely ( ... )
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I think though Sam lying to Jess vs. Dean blurting the truth to Cassie is very indicitive of their personalities and issues throughout the series. Sam is always holding little bits of himself back and lying because of a fear of rejection and it always bites him in the ass. In part this is because the lies endanger the person lied to, but also because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If my boyfriend/brother/whatever lied to me continuously, how could he expect me to trust him about anything else? Dean, meanwhile, is shit at lying to people he cares about and thus keeps offering the secrets of his heart up to people who stomp on it with the full knowledge that he will still be there for him the second they need his help.
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I do think that Sam tends to be more secretive than Dean, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. I'd rather not get my heart stomped on repeatedly, if you know what I mean. Obviously, it becomes an issue when you're playing with fire, such as Sam's secret keeping in S4.
Dean's being completely unable to lie to anyone he cares about for a significant period of time is something I find rather endearing, but it really does have to suck.
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I don't know that I agree with that.
I think he omitted telling her the truth because of the freak aspect - he was trying really hard for normal during that time - and telling her about his non normal past would have spoiled the illusion he was working so hard for.
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Which is part of why I'm so fond of stories where Jess survives, learns the truth, and is utterly fascinated by the supernatural and becomes a hunter herself. *g*
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