And he realized then and there that he was only saved from hell because he broke and opened the first seal - which is why his depression becomes more profound.
I sort of agree with this. I do think that Dean believes that the only reason he was rescued was because the angels have work for him to do, but he had no way of knowing at the time that the angels would wait for him to break before sallying forth to his aid. Even Castiel didn't know, which meant that he unwittingly reinforced the idea that Dean just hadn't held out long enough.
To me, that's the real crux of the issue. Dean knows that he's only important because he broke. However, Castiel said that they set forth "as soon as we discovered Lilith's plans for you", which in turn implies that they set out to save him before he broke. That means that if Dean hadn't broken, the angels would eventually have saved him in order to prevent the first seal from breaking. However, that's not the case - Zachariah wanted him to break, and thus likely prevented any assistance from reaching him until it was too late.
Dean knows he's not "special" or somehow worthy. His tremulous hope in that regard is almost painful to watch in the early episodes of S4 - he goes from outright not believing himself to be worthy in 4x01 to daring to consider the option a possibility in 4x05 and he's shown to be clinging to that hope in 4x15, despite remembering what he did in Hell. 4x16 crushed that completely, and Dean with it.
Re: Dean's memories
This is a point where TPTB really failed, I think. It's not clear when, precisely, Dean got his memories back. Personally, I take it as being at the tale end of Yellow Fever, with microflashbacks before that point. Dean started to subconsciously remember, but it wasn't until YF that the flood dams burst, if you will. I don't think he had his full memories back in 4x01 because of how painfully normal he was. If Dean had really remembered all of Hell, I'm not seeing how porn would have been near the top of his list in terms of prioritization. I could buy him slowly starting to remember over the course of several episodes (his comment about a "slippery slope" in 4x04 indicates to me that he knew something), but I don't see them being there all at once. 3x16!Dean didn't think himself worthy of saving either, even though he desperately did not want to go to Hell.
I have a really hard time buying the fact that John didn't break - and we know demons lie and they lie specifically about anything that will mess with your head - and that messed with Dean's head BIG TIME.
Exactly. Demons tell the truth, but they also lie and in that instance, Alistair needed what would mess with Dean's head the most. A careful mixture of truth and deception at that juncture would have done it. Alistair knew Dean. I don't think that point can ever be overemphasized. Alistair knew Dean inside and out, he knew him longer than John did, longer than Sam. Of course he'd be aware that John is a trigger point for Dean and of course he'd take ruthless advantage of it.
Zach taunted Dean with that fact in 5.1, and Sam was clueless about what Zach was referencing.
Good point! I'll have to go back and rewatch that scene with that concept in mind. It's definitely my personal take that Dean wouldn't have told Sam. Dean hadn't had much luck with opening up to Sam in S4; his two short confessions about Hell had been responded to with Sam's "boo hoo" speech and an immediate slide in how Sam perceived him. Prior to 4x10, Sam seemed to feel Dean capable - after 4x11, he seemed to have no faith in his older brother at all.
Dean would have had no reason to own up about breaking the first seal because to do so would have invited yet more ridicule and it wasn't exactly need to know information. The angels all along had said they had work for Dean (and with the exception of 4x15 where Sam was mentioned in a throw away line), Dean alone to do. I don't think he ever felt the need to explain just why it was that he'd been tapped for the job, just as I'm pretty sure that Sam didn't ask.
don't think he had his full memories back in 4x01 because of how painfully normal he was. If Dean had really remembered all of Hell, I'm not seeing how porn would have been near the top of his list in terms of prioritization.
I remember reading something last year about how people emerging from extremely high pressure, constant crisis situations like intense ongoing war zones and who have been traumatized are able to hold it together initially, even though with some difficulty, reflecting a sense of normalcy. But as time goes on in their now unpressured state, their personality starts fracturing into pieces.
That made sense to me in terms of Dean's response - though I imagine that everyone going through it has their own unique permutation of it.
Dean hadn't had much luck with opening up to Sam in S4; his two short confessions about Hell had been responded to with Sam's "boo hoo" speech and an immediate slide in how Sam perceived him. Prior to 4x10, Sam seemed to feel Dean capable - after 4x11, he seemed to have no faith in his older brother at all.
Yeah I mostly agree with that. It became an opportunity for him to lay a power trip on Dean, which he rationalized to himself as him needing to take the leadership position because Dean was too weak to do it after hell. And no longer capable of getting the job done.
I think I've read the meta that you're referring to. Something like Dean would have been acclimated to Hell as his "norm" setting, therefore as terrible as it would have seemed to us, his perspective of a normal situation would have adjusted to it?
I get the point and agree that it's a valid suggestion, but I don't buy it personally. My main reason for declining to believe in it is that Dean got so much worse after Yellow Fever - he went downhill fairly quickly. We've all of one episode where Sam makes a comment about Dean drinking too much, and it comes as no surprise that it's in Wishful Thinking, not long at all after Yellow Fever. What instigated this fall in his ability to cope if not for him regaining his memories?
Mind, TPTB kinda screwed the pooch in terms of Dean's PTSD storyline big time. It's entirely possible that they meant to imply that Dean had remembered all along but didn't say anything, but if that was their intent, they did a pretty piss-poor job of demonstrating it, IMHO.
It became an opportunity for him to lay a power trip on Dean, which he rationalized to himself as him needing to take the leadership position because Dean was too weak to do it after hell. And no longer capable of getting the job done.
I agree with this. I think this has to do with Sam's control freak tendencies spiraling way out of control as well as Sam's general inability to see a middle ground. Sam's very black and white. You're good, or you're evil. You're capable, or you're not. His opinion of Dean tumbled extremely quickly, moving from the trust he had in his brother in 4x10 and even 4x11 (following Dean's lead when it came to case after case for a month) to what he demonstrated in 4x14 - complete and utter disdain for Dean's trauma or the thought that Dean was effectual at all as a hunter or someone who could save the seals and stop Lilith.
I think a lot of what Sam did was subconscious. I doubt he ever sat down and thought about how he could hamstring Dean and better take over the leadership position, but I am pretty certain that he felt a great deal of resentment about why Dean just couldn't listen when Sam obviously knew what he was talking about. IMHO, it's why Sam was so easily able to fall into Ruby's trap. She was the perfect subordinate for him: clever, capable, and more than willing to follow Sam's lead. She was Sam's idolized version of Dean, a person who loved him, respected him, admired him, and thought he was doing all the right things.
She was the perfect subordinate for him: clever, capable, and more than willing to follow Sam's lead. She was Sam's idolized version of Dean, a person who loved him, respected him, admired him, and thought he was doing all the right things.
Excellent point and I think it says a lot about Sam, Dean and how Sam views their relationship. In flashbacks (and in the show itself) we've seen Dean acting as caretaker for Sam; providing food, encouraging him through gentle ribbing and praise, physically and verbally defending him and the like. Ruby does all of these things with the extra-added bonuses of sex, demonic knowledge and never disagreeing. Similarly, the only other time Sam was without Dean for an extended period, i.e. college, Sam found Jess who was a similar Dean-replacement that fit all of Sam's college needs as opposed to his hunting ones. The fact that he lied to Jess the entire time they were together and jerked Ruby around and left her to be tortured kind of says disturbing things about how Sam views his relationship with Dean.
Oh, I definitely think that Ruby had a role model in place when she changed up her personality. She needed to distract Sam from finding Dean and the best way to do that was, well, to give him another "Dean". And you're right - she was Dean 2.0, a Dean who offered all the comfort but none of the embarrassing older brother habits. A Dean who was smart and a good fighter - but completely subordinate to Sam. And forget 4x14 for being slashy and promoting the Wincest, the fact that Sam started to sleep with his Dean substitute? Infinitely the most slashy thing that has ever aired on this show.
I'd argue though that all of this was subconscious on Sam's part. Definitely conscious on Ruby's part, but very subconscious on Sam's side. If he'd ever realized exactly what Ruby had been doing, I'd be amazed if he wasn't squicked out beyond all measure.
The really evil side of me REALLY wants to see this at some point in S5. *cough*
I can't fold Sam's treatment of Ruby into his treatment of Dean and Jess though. Sam had extremely conflicted emotions towards Ruby but one thing he never really felt towards her was protective. It was fine that Ruby be tortured by Alistair, especially if someone had to be in order to get Alistair to come in 4x10 and the other choices were Sam, Dean, and an angel.
I do think that it bespeaks to Sam's potential to go dark, if he were willing and able to treat a lover in such a fashion. He was also rather dismissive of the doctor in 4x14. I'd argue that in both cases, his ability to act in that manner was because he didn't have a deep emotional connection to either of them. (Well, he obviously did with Ruby, that was was very much a love-hate affair. He needed Ruby and resented her at the same time. He might have even loved her, but he hated her for loving her. I imagine his feelings towards Ruby are incredibly complex and confused.) I take it as a sign of how disconnected Sam was becoming with humanity in general by the end of S4.
I don't really fault him for not telling Jess the truth. He had no way of knowing that he was targeted and he thought that part of his life was done. Why open up to her about it, especially when never telling the truth was a major family rule? Sam was incredulous that Dean had told Cassie, especially since he'd only known her for a few weeks. By not telling her, he was showing that he cared in a way because it was a protective measure. A sort of chauvinistic and probably unwelcome protective measure that indirectly helped to lead to her death, but he didn't mean it in a negative way.
Oh, it was completely conscious on Ruby's part, no doubt about that. In IKWDLS, Sam says that Ruby said everything Dean would which is true except for, you know, encouraging Sam to drink demon blood and get his psychic freak on.
I think though Sam lying to Jess vs. Dean blurting the truth to Cassie is very indicitive of their personalities and issues throughout the series. Sam is always holding little bits of himself back and lying because of a fear of rejection and it always bites him in the ass. In part this is because the lies endanger the person lied to, but also because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If my boyfriend/brother/whatever lied to me continuously, how could he expect me to trust him about anything else? Dean, meanwhile, is shit at lying to people he cares about and thus keeps offering the secrets of his heart up to people who stomp on it with the full knowledge that he will still be there for him the second they need his help.
Yup. The whole thing with Ruby got me because I never understood how he didn't see through her game. I sort of chocked that up to a dumb!Winchester moment, much like how Sam and Dean kept trusting Bela with no reason in S3. It doesn't make any sense but the writers put it in anyway to move the plot along, no matter how OOC it is.
I do think that Sam tends to be more secretive than Dean, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. I'd rather not get my heart stomped on repeatedly, if you know what I mean. Obviously, it becomes an issue when you're playing with fire, such as Sam's secret keeping in S4.
Dean's being completely unable to lie to anyone he cares about for a significant period of time is something I find rather endearing, but it really does have to suck.
By not telling her, he was showing that he cared in a way because it was a protective measure.
I don't know that I agree with that.
I think he omitted telling her the truth because of the freak aspect - he was trying really hard for normal during that time - and telling her about his non normal past would have spoiled the illusion he was working so hard for.
I don't doubt that was part of it as well, but to my mind, preseries!Sam would have been of the opinion that no one would want to know about this stuff, that knowing only would bring heartache and pain and more things to be frightened about. Sam would have remembered finding out the truth and I get the impression that he very much regretted it and would have preferred to have remained ignorant. So absolutely, there's a measure of wanting to disassociate himself from his past and anything he'd consider to be "not normal" but at the same time, I think he was letting his own perceptions cloud his judgment.
Which is part of why I'm so fond of stories where Jess survives, learns the truth, and is utterly fascinated by the supernatural and becomes a hunter herself. *g*
I sort of agree with this. I do think that Dean believes that the only reason he was rescued was because the angels have work for him to do, but he had no way of knowing at the time that the angels would wait for him to break before sallying forth to his aid. Even Castiel didn't know, which meant that he unwittingly reinforced the idea that Dean just hadn't held out long enough.
To me, that's the real crux of the issue. Dean knows that he's only important because he broke. However, Castiel said that they set forth "as soon as we discovered Lilith's plans for you", which in turn implies that they set out to save him before he broke. That means that if Dean hadn't broken, the angels would eventually have saved him in order to prevent the first seal from breaking. However, that's not the case - Zachariah wanted him to break, and thus likely prevented any assistance from reaching him until it was too late.
Dean knows he's not "special" or somehow worthy. His tremulous hope in that regard is almost painful to watch in the early episodes of S4 - he goes from outright not believing himself to be worthy in 4x01 to daring to consider the option a possibility in 4x05 and he's shown to be clinging to that hope in 4x15, despite remembering what he did in Hell. 4x16 crushed that completely, and Dean with it.
Re: Dean's memories
This is a point where TPTB really failed, I think. It's not clear when, precisely, Dean got his memories back. Personally, I take it as being at the tale end of Yellow Fever, with microflashbacks before that point. Dean started to subconsciously remember, but it wasn't until YF that the flood dams burst, if you will. I don't think he had his full memories back in 4x01 because of how painfully normal he was. If Dean had really remembered all of Hell, I'm not seeing how porn would have been near the top of his list in terms of prioritization. I could buy him slowly starting to remember over the course of several episodes (his comment about a "slippery slope" in 4x04 indicates to me that he knew something), but I don't see them being there all at once. 3x16!Dean didn't think himself worthy of saving either, even though he desperately did not want to go to Hell.
I have a really hard time buying the fact that John didn't break - and we know demons lie and they lie specifically about anything that will mess with your head - and that messed with Dean's head BIG TIME.
Exactly. Demons tell the truth, but they also lie and in that instance, Alistair needed what would mess with Dean's head the most. A careful mixture of truth and deception at that juncture would have done it. Alistair knew Dean. I don't think that point can ever be overemphasized. Alistair knew Dean inside and out, he knew him longer than John did, longer than Sam. Of course he'd be aware that John is a trigger point for Dean and of course he'd take ruthless advantage of it.
Zach taunted Dean with that fact in 5.1, and Sam was clueless about what Zach was referencing.
Good point! I'll have to go back and rewatch that scene with that concept in mind. It's definitely my personal take that Dean wouldn't have told Sam. Dean hadn't had much luck with opening up to Sam in S4; his two short confessions about Hell had been responded to with Sam's "boo hoo" speech and an immediate slide in how Sam perceived him. Prior to 4x10, Sam seemed to feel Dean capable - after 4x11, he seemed to have no faith in his older brother at all.
Dean would have had no reason to own up about breaking the first seal because to do so would have invited yet more ridicule and it wasn't exactly need to know information. The angels all along had said they had work for Dean (and with the exception of 4x15 where Sam was mentioned in a throw away line), Dean alone to do. I don't think he ever felt the need to explain just why it was that he'd been tapped for the job, just as I'm pretty sure that Sam didn't ask.
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I remember reading something last year about how people emerging from extremely high pressure, constant crisis situations like intense ongoing war zones and who have been traumatized are able to hold it together initially, even though with some difficulty, reflecting a sense of normalcy. But as time goes on in their now unpressured state, their personality starts fracturing into pieces.
That made sense to me in terms of Dean's response - though I imagine that everyone going through it has their own unique permutation of it.
Dean hadn't had much luck with opening up to Sam in S4; his two short confessions about Hell had been responded to with Sam's "boo hoo" speech and an immediate slide in how Sam perceived him. Prior to 4x10, Sam seemed to feel Dean capable - after 4x11, he seemed to have no faith in his older brother at all.
Yeah I mostly agree with that. It became an opportunity for him to lay a power trip on Dean, which he rationalized to himself as him needing to take the leadership position because Dean was too weak to do it after hell. And no longer capable of getting the job done.
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I get the point and agree that it's a valid suggestion, but I don't buy it personally. My main reason for declining to believe in it is that Dean got so much worse after Yellow Fever - he went downhill fairly quickly. We've all of one episode where Sam makes a comment about Dean drinking too much, and it comes as no surprise that it's in Wishful Thinking, not long at all after Yellow Fever. What instigated this fall in his ability to cope if not for him regaining his memories?
Mind, TPTB kinda screwed the pooch in terms of Dean's PTSD storyline big time. It's entirely possible that they meant to imply that Dean had remembered all along but didn't say anything, but if that was their intent, they did a pretty piss-poor job of demonstrating it, IMHO.
It became an opportunity for him to lay a power trip on Dean, which he rationalized to himself as him needing to take the leadership position because Dean was too weak to do it after hell. And no longer capable of getting the job done.
I agree with this. I think this has to do with Sam's control freak tendencies spiraling way out of control as well as Sam's general inability to see a middle ground. Sam's very black and white. You're good, or you're evil. You're capable, or you're not. His opinion of Dean tumbled extremely quickly, moving from the trust he had in his brother in 4x10 and even 4x11 (following Dean's lead when it came to case after case for a month) to what he demonstrated in 4x14 - complete and utter disdain for Dean's trauma or the thought that Dean was effectual at all as a hunter or someone who could save the seals and stop Lilith.
I think a lot of what Sam did was subconscious. I doubt he ever sat down and thought about how he could hamstring Dean and better take over the leadership position, but I am pretty certain that he felt a great deal of resentment about why Dean just couldn't listen when Sam obviously knew what he was talking about. IMHO, it's why Sam was so easily able to fall into Ruby's trap. She was the perfect subordinate for him: clever, capable, and more than willing to follow Sam's lead. She was Sam's idolized version of Dean, a person who loved him, respected him, admired him, and thought he was doing all the right things.
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Excellent point and I think it says a lot about Sam, Dean and how Sam views their relationship. In flashbacks (and in the show itself) we've seen Dean acting as caretaker for Sam; providing food, encouraging him through gentle ribbing and praise, physically and verbally defending him and the like. Ruby does all of these things with the extra-added bonuses of sex, demonic knowledge and never disagreeing. Similarly, the only other time Sam was without Dean for an extended period, i.e. college, Sam found Jess who was a similar Dean-replacement that fit all of Sam's college needs as opposed to his hunting ones. The fact that he lied to Jess the entire time they were together and jerked Ruby around and left her to be tortured kind of says disturbing things about how Sam views his relationship with Dean.
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I'd argue though that all of this was subconscious on Sam's part. Definitely conscious on Ruby's part, but very subconscious on Sam's side. If he'd ever realized exactly what Ruby had been doing, I'd be amazed if he wasn't squicked out beyond all measure.
The really evil side of me REALLY wants to see this at some point in S5. *cough*
I can't fold Sam's treatment of Ruby into his treatment of Dean and Jess though. Sam had extremely conflicted emotions towards Ruby but one thing he never really felt towards her was protective. It was fine that Ruby be tortured by Alistair, especially if someone had to be in order to get Alistair to come in 4x10 and the other choices were Sam, Dean, and an angel.
I do think that it bespeaks to Sam's potential to go dark, if he were willing and able to treat a lover in such a fashion. He was also rather dismissive of the doctor in 4x14. I'd argue that in both cases, his ability to act in that manner was because he didn't have a deep emotional connection to either of them. (Well, he obviously did with Ruby, that was was very much a love-hate affair. He needed Ruby and resented her at the same time. He might have even loved her, but he hated her for loving her. I imagine his feelings towards Ruby are incredibly complex and confused.) I take it as a sign of how disconnected Sam was becoming with humanity in general by the end of S4.
I don't really fault him for not telling Jess the truth. He had no way of knowing that he was targeted and he thought that part of his life was done. Why open up to her about it, especially when never telling the truth was a major family rule? Sam was incredulous that Dean had told Cassie, especially since he'd only known her for a few weeks. By not telling her, he was showing that he cared in a way because it was a protective measure. A sort of chauvinistic and probably unwelcome protective measure that indirectly helped to lead to her death, but he didn't mean it in a negative way.
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I think though Sam lying to Jess vs. Dean blurting the truth to Cassie is very indicitive of their personalities and issues throughout the series. Sam is always holding little bits of himself back and lying because of a fear of rejection and it always bites him in the ass. In part this is because the lies endanger the person lied to, but also because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If my boyfriend/brother/whatever lied to me continuously, how could he expect me to trust him about anything else? Dean, meanwhile, is shit at lying to people he cares about and thus keeps offering the secrets of his heart up to people who stomp on it with the full knowledge that he will still be there for him the second they need his help.
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I do think that Sam tends to be more secretive than Dean, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. I'd rather not get my heart stomped on repeatedly, if you know what I mean. Obviously, it becomes an issue when you're playing with fire, such as Sam's secret keeping in S4.
Dean's being completely unable to lie to anyone he cares about for a significant period of time is something I find rather endearing, but it really does have to suck.
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I don't know that I agree with that.
I think he omitted telling her the truth because of the freak aspect - he was trying really hard for normal during that time - and telling her about his non normal past would have spoiled the illusion he was working so hard for.
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Which is part of why I'm so fond of stories where Jess survives, learns the truth, and is utterly fascinated by the supernatural and becomes a hunter herself. *g*
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