Words and phrases I would prefer never to see or hear again, a list

[giddy_london]

1. chubby chaser: Is there an equivalent, like say, ‘skinny stalker’ or something similar? No? Oh, well then you can shut the hell up and stop fetishizing/othering body types that do not follow society’s patriarchal view of what is ‘normal’ or ‘attractive’.

2. slut-shaming/whorephobia: The problem inherent in these terms is that by using them to

Comments

[giddy_london]

Thanks, R. I appreciate you taking the time to say something. I've been wondering for the last two days why it is that people are more than happy to interact with you when you have fun, happy, fannish things to talk about, but as soon as you express an actual opinion about important issues, everyone is dead silent. (Or, in some cases, hitting the defriend button). So I'm really, really glad for intelligent discussion. Okay, I'm done with my tangent!

Oh, dude. I find it so fucking ridiculous that women use 'slut-shaming' to condemn other women and men for calling girls/women sluts! I just...how does that make any sense?! I find it extremely contradictory, and I have no idea why I haven't seen more debate about it in blogs, etc. calling out others for their 'slut-shaming' or 'whorephobia'.

I'm kind of fascinated (and really sad) to read about your thoughts on the body hair issue. I agree with you 100% that society is doing a pretty damned good job at brainwashing girls and women into thinking that they need to be completely hairless everywhere, that that is the standard of beauty. I just have to wonder when exactly this became as prevalent as it is.

Interestingly, I'm 31, and ten or more years ago when I was rather at my most sexually adventurous as far as number of different partners, waxing or shaving my pubic area completely bare NEVER crossed my mind! I don't remember that the 'you must look like a pre-pubescent girl!' pressure was as great as it is now. I wonder, then, is it that that so-called standard is even more recent than ten years ago? Because I also can't remember EVER being looked at oddly or getting any comments from anyone I was ever intimate with about the fact that I had a completely natural ladygarden! (And trust me, I was definitely NOT sleeping with a bunch of forward-thinking dudes at this point!) In fact, it wasn't until I was 21 or 22 that I was with someone long-term who wanted me to shave. I did, just to see what it was like, I didn't care for it, and after it itched like mad growing back in, I left things alone again and it wasn't an issue. Now, for the record, I keep things trimmed up a bit with scissors, because that's what I prefer, but the bf doesn't care, and he isn't bothered about whether I shave my legs or not, and I pretty much do it when I feel like it.

I wonder, then, whether the embarrassment factor or the shame factor is just something you have to deal with on your own, in your own time? I've not ever been embarrassed or ashamed about hair or no hair, so I'm not sure. And it sounds pretty dismissive to say 'well, I'm older, you'll get over it when you're older and more accepting of yourself,' which definitely isn't nice or helpful or how I feel. Is it, though, a matter of figuring out what's comfortable for you and what makes you feel confident about yourself and what you prefer FOR YOURSELF? I think perhaps it might be. But I can understand how that "rush of humiliation" might really fuck with that, though, and I think that's a shitty thing to have to deal with. It makes me angry that someone clearly unworthy of how awesome you are could make you feel so ashamed of your body.

And never feel bad about sharing your personal experiences, bb. I really appreciate that you felt comfortable enough to talk about it. ♥

[dancinbutterfly]

The long journal entry I did about it is here: http://dancinbutterfly.livejournal.com/314482.html If you want to read that, and where I go into it in the comments. I talk about it more.

I am, currently, 22 and while I'm a couple months from my next birthday, I'm not exactly a little kid anymore you know but there is a near ten age difference between you and me. It doesnt seem like it should make a big difference but omg it REALLY does. I remember being 17, looking through a Playboy with my first boyfriend and all the girls being fucking spitshined. Ugh, he talked me into trying to trim - hell, he convinced me to let him do it. Mistake. Big. Huge mistake. But the fall out of how I felt about myself when he was like "Well, this could be better" never went away. Trying to wear bathing suits and realizing "oh my god I'm so hairy down there that I CANT" kept me out of the water, despite living LITERALLY ON A BEACH for about 4 years. I still dont feel comfortable going to waterparks unless I'm wearing like...board shorts.

I dont know that it'd bee such a big deal if I hadnt had MULTIPLE partners and EVERY MEDIA REPRESENTATION I HAVE EVER SEEN tell me they had issues with it. *waves at the LJ entry* I talk about it a little over there. I'm a begger when it comes to physical contact. I cant exactly afford to be choosy, you know? If I am, I'd go like before and spend YEARS between contact(which is my current situation and I'm not okay with that).

On the other hand? I cannot do it. Aside from the pain, which is so miserable i want to die, I can't do for my HEALTH. I've got recurrent MRSA and have since 2005. For me? An in-grown hair in my pubic region can become something that sends me to the hospital. I wish to god I was exaggerating, but I'm not.

Idk, its a combination of things. Low self-esteem and a shit ton of self-loathing to start with helps. The fact that the MRSA has already left scars on me in private places (my ass and the side of my breast and my inner thighs) fucked with me enough before I realized hey, what I look like? Not what men want. And I dont think age is going to make that feeling go away.

I dont know. I really dont. And I'm tired of it getting in my way. I am craving a sexually adventurous phase that goes beyond getting tied up or being a Domme for some boy every 6 months in a HUGE way but my own self-loathing is stopping me. I dont know dude. It's not just a societal hypothetical for me. It's reality and I dont know how to fix it.

Edit: I didnt ignore this entry so much as I MISSED IT ENTIRELY. I didnt realize you'd DONE it until I saw the tweet and then I was like "ooh, reactionary stuff? I must go see what it is." I like to be challenged. Especially when I know that I do some of the things (for example, I dont find people of size that attractive until I stop and make myself look again. I know thats a societal brainwashing and have to TRY and get out of it and posts like this help me do that. I'm DEEPLY flawed but I dont mind trying to fix it. I just hope that when people like me try to change when educated with posts like this, the people doing the educating [not just you but anyone] can be gentle with those of us trying to grow.)

[giddy_london]

I saw your post, and I was really glad to see that so many of the people commenting to it were confident enough to say "Fuck it. It doesn't matter. You do what you want!" That was totally awesome - on the other hand, that there was a universal acknowledgment of society's brainwashing still sucks. I think what it comes down to for me is a genuine wish that women be comfortable with, knowledgeable about, and confident in their bodies. Unfortunately, I know that's a long, long way off, especially since, as women, we can't manage to get together and support one another in such an endeavor because we are too busy tearing each other down or ignoring the fact that things need to change.

You're right when you say that the almost ten year age difference really makes a difference, and I hope that you weren't offended that I implied that it might be a factor. (I know it's a sensitive subject for some people, and I try not to be condescending or insulting when I posit it as a theory for different things). You say that you don't think that age and experience will help you feel differently about your body, that it's definitely an issue of self-esteem and self-image, and I really wish that wasn't so. I know that acceptance of yourself isn't something that can happen overnight, and with your experiences (some of which sound pretty awful and painful) it might take a lot of work for you to figure out how to come to terms with being comfortable for yourself. I hope, though, that you're able to get to a place where you're comfortable with yourself and that you find a person with whom you can physically be yourself and who can accept you as you are.

And I still really, really appreciate the feedback and discussion. I wish that more people would speak up and engage, rather than stay quiet, if even we have opposite points of view and will never see eye to eye. I'm not here to tell people that I'm right and they're wrong, or that their opinions are bad and they should feel bad. Sometimes I think it's important to talk about different issues, and I was pretty surprised to see that more than one person's reaction was to defriend me as a result of this post. You telling me about your experiences has taught me something about why girls and women might default to the statement I talk about in the last point on my list, so I consider myself more educated as a result. There can be nothing but value in that, I think.