What this community has shown me over the years is that lolita is unique for attracting quite a selection of deeply conservative girls as it gives them an opportunity to cravenly attention-seek via crazy foreign fashion 'without looking like skanks' (verbatim!). It doesn't take much to have the deeply cloistered/sheltered adult women of EGL to start slutshaming, pointing fingers, sniffing at 'the mainstream', and whathaveyou to start clogging up everything.
She's definitely not the first, and won't be the last. I'm glad the mods were quick on the uptake and deleted her self-martyring post. :P
But agree completely, for some reason lolita tends to get all these types to turn up. Although after experiencing (through a friend) some of the communities that these girls come from like dollfies and cosplay, it's really not too surprising. Don't get me wrong, I have those interests too, but some of those comms are allllll about kissing each other's a** 24/7. If anyone so much as makes a suggestion how to improve something they get all but murdered for being "mean". It's ridiculous!
I don't get it either! I can't comment on non-American/Canadian groups, but the obsession I see at never saying anything even vaguely negative, even when invited via requesting constructive criticism, is mind-boggling. YMMV depending on city/location, but that's the predominant culture on the forums and in many other areas. O_o
IDK if it's generational (self-entitlement issues and the requirement that everyone is praised and treated nicely despite what their actions are), or if it's something to do with a biased sample (lolita attracts conservative girls, conservative girls come from a particular RL society that encourages particular etiquette, ergo that etiquette is transferred to lolita as they participate and then affects interactions when they meet others who aren't from the same background, and it makes lolitas in general considered bitches as a result from the clash). :S God you could write entire essays about the social makeup of EGL. XD
I think the idea of being a "lifestyle lolita" is attractive to conservative girls because it means they can partake in their internalized misogyny but be able to say "it's part of the fashion!"
(Note that I'm not claiming lifestyle Lolita has anything to do with internalized misogyny, but that it can have elements to it that when pushed to extremes beyond what's normal for the hobby/Princess Portal levels match some of those that social conservatives consider "desirable traits" for women- modest, "traditional" dress for women, traditionally feminine pastimes, etiquette as a requirement, conducting oneself as a "lady", and overall the emphasis on a traditional presentation for women.)
No no no, you're making sense. I've seen girls try to pass off their internalized misogyny (as you so aptly put it) as "Well, you can't call me a hater because I appreciate something from another culture!" or (the even better excuse) "Well, women in Japan are more proper and feminine than Western women!" Usually, my reaction nowadays is to smile and nod while thinking "You dumbass, you don't know anything about Japan except Hello Kitty and sushi."
I've had an old accquaintance of mine almost try to get into lolita because she accidentally overheard me talking about the lifestyle. This girl believes feminists are "stupid immoral sluts" and that women deserve to be paid less than men because "the job value of a man is much higher since men are sole breadwinners of their families". I asked her "What about single mothers who are the sole breadwinners of their families?" and she said "They especially don't deserve to paid because it's their fault they had sex outside of wedlock." Then I asked her "What about families with single mothers
( ... )
Yeah, I seriously don't get how so many people can have a hard time seeing why conservative girls are drawn to Lolita.
I mean, if you look at some of the more embarrassing/vocal examples of members of our community, it's a fashion about wearing expensive clothes (with emphasis on working hard to get them- BOOTSTRAPS!), being a "proper woman", and having Prince Charming take care of you.
That's like catnip to a lot of conservative girls, it's no wonder they ignore some of the very feminist implications of the style and the fact most Lolitas think that's BS.
I always wonder how they can ignore the very feminist bits of the style and subculture; especially the subculture! Everytime I open a GLB, there always seems to be a "YEAH do this for yourself!" sort of feel to articles, photoshoots, etc. There's also a bit of "rebel" streak feel to a lot of them too; like don't let society knock you down or stand out while you still can (very true for Japanese youths before they become office drones XD).
Lolita media in Japan advertises such an self-dependent mindset, so I'm always really confused when I see the "cross yer legs and wait for Prince Charming" bunch in the Western community. Sure, there's occasional "handsome Prince" stuff but it's in a very satirical manner. Guess some people are just stupid.
Not to mention that the Lolita culture seems to be very welcoming of queer and nontraditional gender expression. You made a good call mentioning Mana to the conservative you mentioned, really.
Plus technically modern lolita fashion and most of the various Harajuku-based Japanese fashion trends were a form of rebellion against traditional fashion and social expectations.
Quite frankly, I'm glad that the western loli community is mostly just people who enjoy the fashion and accept that anyone who's not trying to live as a lifestyle loli can be pretty much anyone in the general population who just happens to like the fashion. I'd get rid of it all in a second if I was suddenly expected to act all proper all the time and become completely useless throw away my education in favour of finding a proper husband and playing mindless housewife for the rest of my life. >_>
I don't know about southern baptists, but I know through some of my more conservative family that the more conservative they are, the more radical they see themselves, compared to mainstream culture. Also, my family are/were really into DIY, making your own bread, clothes, STUFF and into being self sufficient, it's not a trait that soley belongs to punk(obviously, I think, hang on, I'm getting tired from BRAIN THINKIN WORK
( ... )
This is something about the fashion that has always attracted my attention.
I feel like it kind of conflicts with the conservative views because it is such a luxury fashion. I feel like it is part about self indulgence and vanity in a sense. Conservative girls are attracted to it's "modesty" as in how little skin is shown, but is it really modest if it brings attention to yourself? It is also a fashion that a large part of it is cross-dressing. Whether it be Mana, girls wearing kodona, or boys wearing lolita. Sometimes I feel like the conservative attraction to this fashion is very superficial because once you really get into the details of the fashion, it's not very conservative at all.
That's very true. But I think one of the big uproars about knock offs isn't often spoken. The fact that many lolita's worry about the value of their dress dropping due to the release of knock offs. Which is really the practice of supply and demand, capitalism. But--Wanting to get the most money possible can be interpreted as greed. And if it's not reaching too far, greed is another sin
Does one buy a dress thinking about how much they can get out of it later or do does one buy it because they truly love the dress? If one truly loves the dress and wears it, why is one so worried about the market value?
This is all philosophical of course. I just like to think about the implications of lolita.
What this community has shown me over the years is that lolita is unique for attracting quite a selection of deeply conservative girls as it gives them an opportunity to cravenly attention-seek via crazy foreign fashion 'without looking like skanks' (verbatim!). It doesn't take much to have the deeply cloistered/sheltered adult women of EGL to start slutshaming, pointing fingers, sniffing at 'the mainstream', and whathaveyou to start clogging up everything.
She's definitely not the first, and won't be the last. I'm glad the mods were quick on the uptake and deleted her self-martyring post. :P
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But agree completely, for some reason lolita tends to get all these types to turn up. Although after experiencing (through a friend) some of the communities that these girls come from like dollfies and cosplay, it's really not too surprising. Don't get me wrong, I have those interests too, but some of those comms are allllll about kissing each other's a** 24/7. If anyone so much as makes a suggestion how to improve something they get all but murdered for being "mean". It's ridiculous!
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IDK if it's generational (self-entitlement issues and the requirement that everyone is praised and treated nicely despite what their actions are), or if it's something to do with a biased sample (lolita attracts conservative girls, conservative girls come from a particular RL society that encourages particular etiquette, ergo that etiquette is transferred to lolita as they participate and then affects interactions when they meet others who aren't from the same background, and it makes lolitas in general considered bitches as a result from the clash). :S God you could write entire essays about the social makeup of EGL. XD
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(Note that I'm not claiming lifestyle Lolita has anything to do with internalized misogyny, but that it can have elements to it that when pushed to extremes beyond what's normal for the hobby/Princess Portal levels match some of those that social conservatives consider "desirable traits" for women- modest, "traditional" dress for women, traditionally feminine pastimes, etiquette as a requirement, conducting oneself as a "lady", and overall the emphasis on a traditional presentation for women.)
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I've had an old accquaintance of mine almost try to get into lolita because she accidentally overheard me talking about the lifestyle. This girl believes feminists are "stupid immoral sluts" and that women deserve to be paid less than men because "the job value of a man is much higher since men are sole breadwinners of their families". I asked her "What about single mothers who are the sole breadwinners of their families?" and she said "They especially don't deserve to paid because it's their fault they had sex outside of wedlock." Then I asked her "What about families with single mothers ( ... )
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I mean, if you look at some of the more embarrassing/vocal examples of members of our community, it's a fashion about wearing expensive clothes (with emphasis on working hard to get them- BOOTSTRAPS!), being a "proper woman", and having Prince Charming take care of you.
That's like catnip to a lot of conservative girls, it's no wonder they ignore some of the very feminist implications of the style and the fact most Lolitas think that's BS.
Reply
Lolita media in Japan advertises such an self-dependent mindset, so I'm always really confused when I see the "cross yer legs and wait for Prince Charming" bunch in the Western community. Sure, there's occasional "handsome Prince" stuff but it's in a very satirical manner. Guess some people are just stupid.
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Quite frankly, I'm glad that the western loli community is mostly just people who enjoy the fashion and accept that anyone who's not trying to live as a lifestyle loli can be pretty much anyone in the general population who just happens to like the fashion. I'd get rid of it all in a second if I was suddenly expected to act all proper all the time and become completely useless throw away my education in favour of finding a proper husband and playing mindless housewife for the rest of my life. >_>
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I feel like it kind of conflicts with the conservative views because it is such a luxury fashion.
I feel like it is part about self indulgence and vanity in a sense.
Conservative girls are attracted to it's "modesty" as in how little skin is shown, but is it really modest if it brings attention to yourself?
It is also a fashion that a large part of it is cross-dressing. Whether it be Mana, girls wearing kodona, or boys wearing lolita.
Sometimes I feel like the conservative attraction to this fashion is very superficial because once you really get into the details of the fashion, it's not very conservative at all.
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The fact that many lolita's worry about the value of their dress dropping due to the release of knock offs.
Which is really the practice of supply and demand, capitalism.
But--Wanting to get the most money possible can be interpreted as greed.
And if it's not reaching too far, greed is another sin
Does one buy a dress thinking about how much they can get out of it later or do does one buy it because they truly love the dress? If one truly loves the dress and wears it, why is one so worried about the market value?
This is all philosophical of course. I just like to think about the implications of lolita.
Reply
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