Atheists be trollin'
I recently watched a video on youtube in response to the claim by religion (i/e conservative Christians) that 'you can't trust science.' It points out all the great things science has done for us, and that religion has not progressed mankind at all
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"If we want to postulate a deity capable of engineering all the organized complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, that deity must have been vastly complex in the first place. The creationist, whether a naive Bible-thumper or an educated bishop, simply postulates an already existing being of prodigious intelligence and complexity. If we are going to allow ourselves the luxury of postulating organized complexity without offering an explanation, we might as well make a job of it and simply postulate the existence of life as we know it!"
I don't think that belief in God gives us anything greater. What could possibly be greater than the profound and breathtaking complexity of the universe itself? The more I learn through science, the less I find I need spirituality to feel wonder, joy and hope.
Religion's purpose, historically, has been to codify ethics and create social contracts that are, in effect, immutable due to the immortal nature of its leader (a deity), as opposed to a king or ruler who can be killed or overthrown. The man himself is the seeker of love, enlightenment, and community. Religion does not necessarily set out to do these things, but it can facilitate them. It can also lead to great and terrible acts of segregation, isolation, violence and destruction.
As much as you say there are all these ignorant atheists, how many of them are bringing violence against religious groups? How many wage wars in the name of their beliefs? None spring to mind, for me.
Religious structures are often threatened by scientific discoveries. First, the discovery that the planetary system was heliocentric and not geocentric was heresy. Then the idea that men were not created in the image of God, but evolved from next to nothing, was great heresy. The idea that a woman is and should always be equal to a man, was also heresy. The scientific discovery that sexual preference is genetic was decried as heresy.
At the heart of every struggle against progress you will find at least one religious group, because any system based on irrationality (faith) will feel threatened by a system based on reason (science).
You have a foot in either camp and I can see why this frustrates you. It's like watching your two best friends fight. However, it does a discredit to your intellect to claim that the struggle does not exist, because it does. It is evidenced throughout history and in the news today.
If you have not done so, I highly recommend you to read two books: Meditations for the Humanist: Ethics for a Secular Age by A.C. Grayling, and anything by Richard Dawkins (although The God Delusion and The Enemies of Reason seem particularly relevant). I also ask that you not turn away from these suggestions offended, because to take offense is quite the silliest thing in the world to do. I only ask that with the inquisitive mind of a future science teacher, do you give it a whirl, and see if we can't be just as well off or better without the need for higher powers (and even if you don't, Ethics is a beautiful and well-reasoned set of short ethics essays that I would recommend to anyone, Humanist or no.)
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Dawkins does for biology what Stephen Hawking does for astrophysics: he tries to use layman's terms to explain complex theories so that they can be understood easily by people who are not scientists or even scholars.
I think, if you are a Christian, forgiveness is what you constantly strive for, no? And understanding? And to be kind and good to others? Dawkins wants that also. An excerpt from The Selfish Gene:
"Let us try to teach generosity and altruism, because we are born selfish."
Even from a Christian standpoint you must agree. If we are born with original sin, we are born selfish and greedy. Psychology supports this. It's called "egocentrism" and we grow out of it with proper upbringing and a gradual understanding of the world around us and our place in it. But altruism and generosity must be taught. Else why would we form religion to codify the ethics we so desperately need to coexist peaceably?
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God is unfathomable, but that isn't the same as complicated. While I admit I have not read Dawkins very completely, the fact is, every time I do read a selection from Dawkins, the one thing that always leaps out at me is that Dawkins hasn't read the Bible very closely. If he had, he would have come across this tidbit from the Book of Mark [4:30-31] "He [Jesus] said, `With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable will we use for it? It is like a mustard seed, which when sown upon thr ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth; yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes the greatest of all shrubs, and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.'" Complexity doesn't grow out of more complexity, even in physics.
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A mustard seed is very small, but that does not make it simple, given what we now know through science. But it must have seemed very simple indeed to those ignorant of chemistry and phsyics.
Even those who seek a Unified Field Theory to explain the nature of the universe know that even as you approach the quantum level, things don't get simpler. They get weirder and more difficult to explain. This isn't because they're miraculously outside the laws of nature -- it simply means that mankind does not understand them yet. But I have faith that we will.
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Please do not confuse science with religion, they are not analogous.
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I am interested in secular humanism, so if I feel like reading a book on it, I will read the first book you mentioned- although lately I've been on a sci fi thing. I am not being intentionally dismissive, I just don't often read books people tell me to read, unless they are books I distinctively want to read, and lately I have only distinctively wanted to read Terry Prachett and old cyberpunk. I'm stubborn like that. Also, the god that I follow is not really akin to that found in many religions. It's the equation that runs the universe.. It's not something that guided evolution, it's something that came up with the equation for the Mandelbrot set that is entropy, evolution, etc. To me, science is the study of God's work.
As for God's involvement, I don't know. I can't know. And I don't think it matters. I think people need to live their lives in a good way, no matter what. And religion can help or hinder this.
I can't easily quantify my faith, but I will try as I think about this. Thank you for posting a very kind post. Again, I will try to think of a longer and more appropriate reply and post it sometime later after I've had some time to stew my thoughts.
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Again, this post was directed at smug internet atheists. I judge religions and philosophies heavily on their followers, and while I understand extremists will ruin everything, the massive amount of over-vocal smug atheists on the internet has made me very sour on the whole thing. I also have major problems with Christianity, and other philosophies that people use as an excuse to be assholes.
At this juncture, I feel the best philosophical stance is to acknowledge that I cannot know whether or not there is a creator, and that I have a personal choice to believe or not to believe. I will not force this view on others, nor will I take kindly to others being aggressive towards me and my views. Furthermore, I react very harshly to people attacking religion as a whole for the faults of conservative Christianity.
This is not because I hate people who attack religion. It's because I wish they'd be specific. If the video that spurned this rant had declared Christian fundamentalism the thing that has offered nothing to humanity but communion wafers and hotel bibles, I wouldn't complain. But when religion has offered a large amount to humanity, both good and evil, I take massive offense.
As for science and religion, different religions react to science differently. It's difficult for an old tradition to take in new information, that's not something that is restricted to religion.
Also, on your comment about people waging wars for their beliefs, I think that many people who wage war in the name of God could easily be swayed to wage war in any number of causes, be they god, country, money, whatever. It's a side of humanity I find regrettable at best. However, what I see in the internet atheists is simple trolling. It's not murder, it's pathetic. I think a lot of atheists want to bomb Westboro baptist church. People might applaud that, but it wouldn't make it right.
And I share your sense of wonder when I look at the universe. However, I see the beautiful patterns, and look at it as a work of art, or perhaps a mathematical simulation, akin to the Mandelbrot set. Science will never find God, but it uncovers his work.
I gave a lot of thought to this reply, and what you've said. I thank you for being incredibly sympathetic, with the 'best friends fighting' analogy. It's perfect.
And today was a very spiritual day for me. Or at least deeply moving. I sat outside on my parents porch in the shade, played fetch with the dog, and drank a shitty beer while thinking about this and quantum entanglement. I hope you had a similar day. Because God, god, gods, or no god, we've got to make the best of what we have here, right now.
And to make a last point, that seemed to be a big point of Jesus. Too bad about his followers.
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It boils down to a case of the absolutes. Absolutes combined with lack of evidence of superiority or inferiority of one ideology over another. People who buy into this method of thinking are the most prone to violence for causes.
The thing that usually gets my goat about religion (by definition, i mean this word in the specific and traditional sense) is how presumptuous it is. An omnipotent being created this vast and glorious universe, but puts all of its focus on one species on one tiny planet out of an infinite number of planets. It's the one thing they all have in common. And it seems a little fishy to me, you know? What the hell makes us so special, and who are we to create this religion to make us feel so damn special? If God created us in its image, then we're basically worshiping ourselves. It's ego-tripping on a grand scale, and I think the mindset inherent in religion that our species has special (and has an eternal soul) has caused us to poison this planet without a care because, hey, it's only temporary, right? Let's ignore this world and keep our eyes on heaven.
So that's the attitude that I see as a complete waste, and in my studies of the major religions of the world, it's central to all. It does us all a great disservice.
In the words of the great Discordians: "The human race will begin solving its problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously."
Anything based on pure speculation should not be taken seriously. To be offended when pure speculation is challenged is absurd. I find it difficult, for these reasons, to adopt or even consider spirituality.
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