and so it continues (but happily so)
Well, yay John (spell?) for joining the fray. I'm getting tired of the 'quote, comment, quote, comment' approach, so fortunately he numbered his points - i'm gonna address them by number :)
Check out his reply to the previous post to tag along :)
1.) Fear based obedience, versus Love based obedience
My point was not that we shouldn't have a 'fear' of God. I think the fear you're talking about, and refrenced is different than what i was going for. What you're talking about is that awe inspiring, bed wetting, trembling before the imensity and power and majesty that is God. I totally agree that is good, and the begining of wisdom :)
the type of fear I'm talking about is... being good to avoid a punitive gesture by God... to try to avoid His wrath, or displesure. Having been saved, we have no reason to fear the wrath of God, His wrath and anger is not fixed on us, it was poured on Christ, and when He looks at us it is only with love.
1 John 2:2
He is the one who turns aside God's wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away our sins.
couple other versus on that : 1 Thessalonians 10:1, Romans 5:9
Jesus pretty much lays out what I'm trying to say in John 14..
John 14: 15, 21, 23-24
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you.
I think we're called to obey out of love, and our obedience is a sign of that love.
one other thing you said here "obviously, responsive love for what the Saviour has done for us is appropiate, proper and the right response."
I agree, and yet.... that doesn't seem enough. Part of my whole spiel before was seeing/loving people for who they are (holy/pure/blameless child of God)... how much more does that apply to God then?
It seems somehow shallow to limit our love to a response to the blessings/gifts/salvation he's given us. He is worthy of it all, simply because he is worthy. He is GOD. now i know i know, you all will say 'what about "we love cause God first loved us" isn't that a respose?' - and you could logistically work it out so yes, all love is an initial response etc. etc., but you do you see the point i'm trying to make?
2.) God set up a covenant with Jews that he knew they would never be able to keep, it was impossible. From day one they were goners. From day one they needed Grace... you know the whole God is "slow to anger, and quick to forgive"
But if you haven't turned away from sin, then are you still receiving the blessing of God?
ok, since i think we're agreed its not a question of forgiveness (different than blessing) here's the dealio :)
God had a reward system, you know - storing up heavenly treasures etc. God opposes the proud (Prov. 3:34, James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5), and encourages faithfulness by adding more trust (Luke 16:10)
I think its safe to conclude (and there are more versus out there) that being repentant will have you see more blessings. I mean, we're called to give our whole heart to God, and God will bless our efforts and faithfulness in pursuing him.
3.) Again, not trying to justify or rationalize drugs, or 'X', for one thing, the fact that it's illegal should be enough to remove it from the realm of possiblity from a biblical standpoint. however : "My drug use, doesn't even register as a 'problem' by any addict scale." was to point out that there are bigger issues in my life, not trying to say using drugs wouldn't be bad, but like - I struggle with pornography more than 5 times every two years, point was to put a relative perspective on it. Now, wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, I was trying to make the point that to many other people, drugs would seem to be the 'big issue' - which i think was proven quite nicely.
And with that, I think we're done with the drug topic. Unless there are some new inovating points - and i mean new, and very innovating.
And yes, leaders should try to model. And yea, perfection is a pretty high standard ;)
4.) well yay we agree then
And i'm spent, but would love to hear more thougts.
Check out his reply to the previous post to tag along :)
1.) Fear based obedience, versus Love based obedience
My point was not that we shouldn't have a 'fear' of God. I think the fear you're talking about, and refrenced is different than what i was going for. What you're talking about is that awe inspiring, bed wetting, trembling before the imensity and power and majesty that is God. I totally agree that is good, and the begining of wisdom :)
the type of fear I'm talking about is... being good to avoid a punitive gesture by God... to try to avoid His wrath, or displesure. Having been saved, we have no reason to fear the wrath of God, His wrath and anger is not fixed on us, it was poured on Christ, and when He looks at us it is only with love.
1 John 2:2
He is the one who turns aside God's wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away our sins.
couple other versus on that : 1 Thessalonians 10:1, Romans 5:9
Jesus pretty much lays out what I'm trying to say in John 14..
John 14: 15, 21, 23-24
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you.
I think we're called to obey out of love, and our obedience is a sign of that love.
one other thing you said here "obviously, responsive love for what the Saviour has done for us is appropiate, proper and the right response."
I agree, and yet.... that doesn't seem enough. Part of my whole spiel before was seeing/loving people for who they are (holy/pure/blameless child of God)... how much more does that apply to God then?
It seems somehow shallow to limit our love to a response to the blessings/gifts/salvation he's given us. He is worthy of it all, simply because he is worthy. He is GOD. now i know i know, you all will say 'what about "we love cause God first loved us" isn't that a respose?' - and you could logistically work it out so yes, all love is an initial response etc. etc., but you do you see the point i'm trying to make?
2.) God set up a covenant with Jews that he knew they would never be able to keep, it was impossible. From day one they were goners. From day one they needed Grace... you know the whole God is "slow to anger, and quick to forgive"
But if you haven't turned away from sin, then are you still receiving the blessing of God?
ok, since i think we're agreed its not a question of forgiveness (different than blessing) here's the dealio :)
God had a reward system, you know - storing up heavenly treasures etc. God opposes the proud (Prov. 3:34, James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5), and encourages faithfulness by adding more trust (Luke 16:10)
I think its safe to conclude (and there are more versus out there) that being repentant will have you see more blessings. I mean, we're called to give our whole heart to God, and God will bless our efforts and faithfulness in pursuing him.
3.) Again, not trying to justify or rationalize drugs, or 'X', for one thing, the fact that it's illegal should be enough to remove it from the realm of possiblity from a biblical standpoint. however : "My drug use, doesn't even register as a 'problem' by any addict scale." was to point out that there are bigger issues in my life, not trying to say using drugs wouldn't be bad, but like - I struggle with pornography more than 5 times every two years, point was to put a relative perspective on it. Now, wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong, I was trying to make the point that to many other people, drugs would seem to be the 'big issue' - which i think was proven quite nicely.
And with that, I think we're done with the drug topic. Unless there are some new inovating points - and i mean new, and very innovating.
And yes, leaders should try to model. And yea, perfection is a pretty high standard ;)
4.) well yay we agree then
And i'm spent, but would love to hear more thougts.