the addressings of the things
Ok, so I do know you can use the reply feature in the comments area to like, address peoples comments, but I hate all the clicking to get to what i want to read ;)
clarinuto
2004-04-19 20:59
I still feel that it is neccesary for me, when I turn from God, to give myself back to Him before I feel I am forgiven justly.
Ok. That's not an irrational statement at all :) I think that yea, turning back to God, and repenting will allow you to feel His forgiveness. That's a good thing to feel, but its just a feeling, not a reality.
An example ... ummm... you have a fight with your boyfriend. Say its something he did, or didnt' do that suddenly made you feel like he didn't really love you. You kinda stew over it, feeling hurt etc, all the while he's like totally oblivious. You come to him and you're like 'When you did blah, I felt like you didn't love me' and he's like 'Oh i'm so sorry, of course I love you' gives you this like big embrace and you feel the love again.
So something happened, you felt one way, but the reality was another - then you came back around. Kind of like forgiveness, you may feel unforgiven, and when you come back to God and repent, you feel much better. However, you were always forgiven. I think the feeling is good though, it allows you to come closer to God - you'll always be forgiven, but coming back to Him and feeling it helps you be closer.
before I feel I am forgiven justly.
I'm not trying to nitpick - but there's no forgiveness we're ever given that is 'just.' By rights what we deserve is death. God gives us an awesome gift with his forgiveness but never do deserve it.
Romans 6:23 says : "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life for those in Christ Jesus"
We'll rightly never say to God "Hey God, I just want you to be fair, and give me what I deserve, just be fair." I mean - what we deserve is death. Just because you feel sorry doesn't mean you deserve to be forgiven. I think that its good though, and realizing what you've done is wrong, while it doesn't like earn you forgiveness, does help you grow closer to God.
I find it really hard inside to feel that people who aren't the least bit sorry for what they've done are forgiven in the same way that someone who is truly sorry is forgiven. I guess the distinction I'm making is that if people who aren't sorry are forgiven, then why do people go to hell?
Through all of this, I'm making a base assumption that people are saved. That means at some point in their life, they realized "Hey, I need forgiveness, I am a sinner, ,God I'm sorry - I want to make you Lord of my life." From that point on, God does not even look on your sin, He is unable to even see it. Christ washes it away, and you are holy and pure. Once you've initially done that, you don't need to be sorry to be forgiven. That's just to say you're forgiven, it doesn't mean its a good thing to not be sorry. I think its best to be repentant, to bring it to God and say 'hey, you know what - I goofed, I don't want to goof and I'm sorry.' I think God moves in people, and gives the conviction and they come around as they pursue Him.
The people who go to hell, are those who aren't saved - who don't have that base recognition that they are a sinner in need of the Grace of God - and who repent of their life and turn to Christ.
If I have unrepentant sin (that i'm aware of or not), I still have that base understanding with God. I know that I need grace, and that I need God, and that i'm not perfect, but its ok because he loves me and died for me. I'll try to be better usually cause I love God.
However, I think I may have just understood where you are coming from. Are you saying that people who believe in God and are trying to do the right thing, even if what they are doing is actually wrong, they still endue salvation, but people who reject God completely are the one's who aren't taking the salvation God is offering and so they inturn go to hell? I hope I said that clearly enough....
See my comment previous to that. I think we all try to do what we think is right, we just might not always know what that is. That's why its important to be teachable, so when people point things out, with biblical basis, we can take it to heart and try to be better.
I think we're on the same page - near enough :)
(Anonymous)
2004-04-19 21:15
Are you saying that if you have been saved, and wiped clean of sin, that you can basically do whatever you want and it is okay because you are clean? You can sin all you want and it is okay?
I think if you're saved, you won't be able to 'sin all you want' and have it be ok. Eventually you'll notice 'hey, this isn't cool', and/or God will give you a wakeup call. I really do believe God changes lives, and if you see no fruit you have to wonder where God is in their lives...
Matthew 7:16-23
16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
You just look for fruits in people's lives.
Galatians 5:19-26
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Now, just cause you have some sinful natures (say, sexual impurity) etc, doesn't mean you aren't saved - you have to look at the general pattern of someone's life. If one of my bro's gets drunk once a month, I don't like - raise a battle cry and declare him an unbeliever - he's just not perfect. I correct him gently out of Love.
Galatians 6:1
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
With all that said - you can't ever really judge someone else's salvation, ,so you just shouldn't try :)
Matthew 7:1-5
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
That's pretty much that, any thoughts? :)
clarinuto
2004-04-19 20:59
I still feel that it is neccesary for me, when I turn from God, to give myself back to Him before I feel I am forgiven justly.
Ok. That's not an irrational statement at all :) I think that yea, turning back to God, and repenting will allow you to feel His forgiveness. That's a good thing to feel, but its just a feeling, not a reality.
An example ... ummm... you have a fight with your boyfriend. Say its something he did, or didnt' do that suddenly made you feel like he didn't really love you. You kinda stew over it, feeling hurt etc, all the while he's like totally oblivious. You come to him and you're like 'When you did blah, I felt like you didn't love me' and he's like 'Oh i'm so sorry, of course I love you' gives you this like big embrace and you feel the love again.
So something happened, you felt one way, but the reality was another - then you came back around. Kind of like forgiveness, you may feel unforgiven, and when you come back to God and repent, you feel much better. However, you were always forgiven. I think the feeling is good though, it allows you to come closer to God - you'll always be forgiven, but coming back to Him and feeling it helps you be closer.
before I feel I am forgiven justly.
I'm not trying to nitpick - but there's no forgiveness we're ever given that is 'just.' By rights what we deserve is death. God gives us an awesome gift with his forgiveness but never do deserve it.
Romans 6:23 says : "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life for those in Christ Jesus"
We'll rightly never say to God "Hey God, I just want you to be fair, and give me what I deserve, just be fair." I mean - what we deserve is death. Just because you feel sorry doesn't mean you deserve to be forgiven. I think that its good though, and realizing what you've done is wrong, while it doesn't like earn you forgiveness, does help you grow closer to God.
I find it really hard inside to feel that people who aren't the least bit sorry for what they've done are forgiven in the same way that someone who is truly sorry is forgiven. I guess the distinction I'm making is that if people who aren't sorry are forgiven, then why do people go to hell?
Through all of this, I'm making a base assumption that people are saved. That means at some point in their life, they realized "Hey, I need forgiveness, I am a sinner, ,God I'm sorry - I want to make you Lord of my life." From that point on, God does not even look on your sin, He is unable to even see it. Christ washes it away, and you are holy and pure. Once you've initially done that, you don't need to be sorry to be forgiven. That's just to say you're forgiven, it doesn't mean its a good thing to not be sorry. I think its best to be repentant, to bring it to God and say 'hey, you know what - I goofed, I don't want to goof and I'm sorry.' I think God moves in people, and gives the conviction and they come around as they pursue Him.
The people who go to hell, are those who aren't saved - who don't have that base recognition that they are a sinner in need of the Grace of God - and who repent of their life and turn to Christ.
If I have unrepentant sin (that i'm aware of or not), I still have that base understanding with God. I know that I need grace, and that I need God, and that i'm not perfect, but its ok because he loves me and died for me. I'll try to be better usually cause I love God.
However, I think I may have just understood where you are coming from. Are you saying that people who believe in God and are trying to do the right thing, even if what they are doing is actually wrong, they still endue salvation, but people who reject God completely are the one's who aren't taking the salvation God is offering and so they inturn go to hell? I hope I said that clearly enough....
See my comment previous to that. I think we all try to do what we think is right, we just might not always know what that is. That's why its important to be teachable, so when people point things out, with biblical basis, we can take it to heart and try to be better.
I think we're on the same page - near enough :)
(Anonymous)
2004-04-19 21:15
Are you saying that if you have been saved, and wiped clean of sin, that you can basically do whatever you want and it is okay because you are clean? You can sin all you want and it is okay?
I think if you're saved, you won't be able to 'sin all you want' and have it be ok. Eventually you'll notice 'hey, this isn't cool', and/or God will give you a wakeup call. I really do believe God changes lives, and if you see no fruit you have to wonder where God is in their lives...
Matthew 7:16-23
16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
You just look for fruits in people's lives.
Galatians 5:19-26
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Now, just cause you have some sinful natures (say, sexual impurity) etc, doesn't mean you aren't saved - you have to look at the general pattern of someone's life. If one of my bro's gets drunk once a month, I don't like - raise a battle cry and declare him an unbeliever - he's just not perfect. I correct him gently out of Love.
Galatians 6:1
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.
With all that said - you can't ever really judge someone else's salvation, ,so you just shouldn't try :)
Matthew 7:1-5
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
That's pretty much that, any thoughts? :)