this is a really cheap update, as am basically borrowing other people's words

[gargantsurprise]

I have been meaning to make a Persona 4 post for a long time, but for various reasons I hadn't yet done so. However, a couple of days ago, I stumbled upon a dreamwidth post that captured my feelings on the game pretty damn perfectly

Comments

[cruxis]

This is really interesting because I wrote a paper for Women's Studies last year about how there's a lot of positive representation of women in P4, by the females themselves. And like I said on Twitter, I don't have as much of a problem with what Persona 4 does as much as what it doesn't do.

I'm not very easily offended, though.

ahhhhhh I am willing to have a conversation on this front, of course, but I am feeling hesitant because when people have not-so-positive opinions on things, sometimes they do not want to talk about the thing in depth. :|b also I have class to go to again.

[gargantsurprise]

You know, I'm totally down with that. I have no issues at all with the female characters themselves, and how they respond to situations and to each other. But then you get scenes like the one above, and everything seems to go to hell. I have a lot of fondness for the female characters, but I can't stand the way the world they're set in seems to treat them, and the way it's so casual about it. I am not even kidding, if one of my male friends (not even a boyfriend!) pressured me into dressing in a swimsuit HE'D PURCHASED WITHOUT MY PERMISSION for his gratification (and especially if it was portrayed as being penance because I'd TRIED to cook for him but ultimately failed), I. ugh, well. I just can't disconnect myself from that line of thinking. I can't stop feeling horribly, horribly uncomfortable about scenes like this

[cruxis]

I'm under the impression that the girls themselves weren't all that bothered by it (the swimsuit scene, at least). As I recall, they shoved Yosuke et co. into the river, and they did agree to get changed. Chie's demonstrated that previously that she will not be shoved around and will kick a guy in the balls for pissing her off, so there's, to me, very little wrong with that scene in that it seems like a dynamic of the friendship between them, to me. Clearly Chie is used to Yosuke's stupid and whatever, but. I haven't played the game in a while, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

If someone tried to pressure me into something like that, I'd punch him in the face. If a guy is so stupid and desperate as to buy swimsuits to just carry around in case of possible sexy, that's not really my business. If, however, he wants me to be his sexy, that's a problem. There's nothing he could do to make me feel obligated in getting dressed as he desired.

I feel like the girls chose to do that because they had offered to cook (and been

[theeternalmind]

Which end of the game? There's like three different ones.

ALSO I WILL TOTALLY DISCUSS PERSONA 4 WITH YOU FOREVER

I agree with a lot of characterization stuff getting unfortunately brushed aside in favor of the plot. Like, for example, Yukiko and Kanji are childhood friends, but they frankly treat each other like strangers for most of the game, which to me is a terrible waste of a potential dynamic. I also went :| at how Naoto was treated post-spoilers--it's not like he's treated poorly, it's just, "Oh, and now he is [spoilers], let's treat him exactly like that from now on." I know in Kanji's case, his sexuality was meant to be left ambiguous--the director didn't want to say for sure whether he was gay or just confused--but it just sort of... yeah, didn't go much of anywhere. (Of course, I never finished his Social Link, so.)

[theeternalmind]

As much as I love Persona 4 and nearly all of the characters in it... You/this article (I'll have to read the whole thing another time as I'm on my break at work right now) is right, it does a lot of objectification that only becomes "not okay" within the framework of the game when it crosses the line into murder. It's not just sexism and sizeism either; it's the idea that ugly people are also naturally unpleasant (Mitsuo, Morooka, Hanako, Kashiwagi (though she's less "ugly" and more "old")). I like this game--I would even go so far as to say it's one of my all-time favorites--but that doesn't mean it doesn't do things that annoy me, or that there isn't anything within it worth objecting to.

As for Yosuke's whiny homophobia, etc., I actually know someone who wrote an excellent character essay on Yosuke that touches on this matter. If you're interested, let me know and I'll hook you up; it might help give some perspective on the matter.

[gargantsurprise]

The Mitsuo and Morooka examples both really stood out to me, actually. I thought about mentioning them in the post, but, yeah. The continued massive disrespect for Morooka after his death doesn't help my opinion, either. Not that you should suddenly pretend that you liked someone just because they died, but would it kill them to call him by his name? ugh.

I've actually read quite a lot of really good meta on Yosuke, and I wish it would help my opinion of him. I just can't bring myself to stomach him, at all, no matter how hard I try and how much I come to understand about his character. That said, I would be quite interested in a link. Although I'm proving to be HOPELESS on this whole topic, I am still. interested in other people's thoughts. :|b go meee.

[theeternalmind]

Now, was this disrespect to Morooka from the party, or from the Inabans in general? Because I seem to recall even Yosuke, who hated his guts, going, "Geez, I didn't like him, but that didn't mean he deserved to die" (I can't recall if he called Morooka by name or not, though), and normal students/people like Kashiwagi tended to be pretty nasty, BUT this is a running theme throughout the game that you might notice if you talk to NPCs--the people of Inaba are, not entirely but quite a lot of them, awful people. Right after Mayumi and Saki died, there is this man in a suit you can talk to in the northern central shopping district who talked about how he was a fan of Mayumi's and how betrayed he felt when he heard she was having an affair with Namatame, and a lot of people feel like that, so he wasn't surprised when he heard she'd gotten killed. THAT offended me, that someone could be that self-absorbed and callous, though I didn't blame the game for that; sometimes people really are just that god-awful

[paperclipchains]

I think character essays are kind of superfluous for Yosuke because you can explain this and that until you're blue in the face but at the end of the day... he's just a very typical teenage boy, and not the kind you should make excuses for.

[gargantsurprise]

When I started the game, I thought he was going to be my favourite character. I really teetered on him for a long time, I just couldn't make up my mind. Then something just tipped the scales against him, and... it's just gotten worse and worse and worse.

I think P4 might be my new Geass.

[paperclipchains]

Yaaaaay, more people who hate Yosuke!

[paperclipchains]

I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, they continue to drop the ball all the way through to the end. I tend to take it out on Yosuke.

There's lots of things I like about the game, but... For a game that brushes against all of these issues of gender and sexuality and considers itself so brave for doing so, it's amazing how frequently they drop the ball. I'm not sure they saw any of it through to a conclusion that wasn't ultimately status quo.

[eva_kasumi]

Not trying to make any waves here, so I hope I don't offend; just want to throw my two cents in. I largely agree with what you quoted from the article, and there were definitely moments and aspects of P4 that completely pissed me off--the inability to have Souji express disapproval of Yosuke's sexism was one area. Also the line that pissed me off the absolute most in this game was when--SPOILER FOR NAOTO I'm inferring from what you've quoted that you've passed this part?--Yukiko says that being kidnapped would have been even harder and scarier for Naoto because she's a girl. I was so utterly pissed at Yukiko for that. But I admit, I forgive a lot of the sexism and other offensive comments because for the most part I don't feel that the game is necessarily condoning these things: it is merely painting an accurate portrayal of teenagers. That's what really resonates with me about this game: these kids are teenagers and they do and say the dumb shit that teenagers do and they express their insecurities in the unfortunate way that