this is a really cheap update, as am basically borrowing other people's words

[gargantsurprise]

I have been meaning to make a Persona 4 post for a long time, but for various reasons I hadn't yet done so. However, a couple of days ago, I stumbled upon a dreamwidth post that captured my feelings on the game pretty damn perfectly

Comments

[cruxis]

I'm under the impression that the girls themselves weren't all that bothered by it (the swimsuit scene, at least). As I recall, they shoved Yosuke et co. into the river, and they did agree to get changed. Chie's demonstrated that previously that she will not be shoved around and will kick a guy in the balls for pissing her off, so there's, to me, very little wrong with that scene in that it seems like a dynamic of the friendship between them, to me. Clearly Chie is used to Yosuke's stupid and whatever, but. I haven't played the game in a while, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

If someone tried to pressure me into something like that, I'd punch him in the face. If a guy is so stupid and desperate as to buy swimsuits to just carry around in case of possible sexy, that's not really my business. If, however, he wants me to be his sexy, that's a problem. There's nothing he could do to make me feel obligated in getting dressed as he desired.

I feel like the girls chose to do that because they had offered to cook (and been fairly excited about it, as I recall) and then failed to produce something edible. I'd feel bad if I'd done something similar. I don't think Yosuke or the 'world' quite expects them to do as Yosuke acts like he does, but it certainly isn't complaining when they do. I don't know, I just found the friendship dynamic in P4 was very different from and much stronger than that in P3 (can't help comparing), which is what makes me more comfortable with the hijinks that go on, regardless of their gendering. It reminds me a little of how Eric and I jokingly pressure Lisa into wearing whatever strange clothing we find when we're shopping, because she looks good in everything. We're gratified, yes, even though it isn't sexual. The important part is that Lisa agrees to it. I think the same holds true to the game. (I personally doubt that Yosuke is actually sexually attracted to any of the girls in the group, but that's a whole other can of worms.)

Also, don't call me cute. :| I don't remember this detail, but I would not be fond of it.

My lecture is so much less interesting than this discussion. I have had all this P4 discussion possibility bottled up forever.

Ahhhh, what disappointed me in the game was how close it got to effectively dealing with some teen issues in a manner I thought was appropriate, but then backed off of them. This is really my personal desire for everything to be serious, but I was so disappointed with how Kanji and Naoto's issues got... just brushed aside. Naoto is full of spoilers, so I'll just address Kanji, but I don't know. The game had a real opportunity to deal with a gay/bisexual young man effectively and it just didn't. I love Kanji to death and he's my favourite character by a massive margin, and I don't really care either way what way his actual preferences run, but I feel like the game built up so much potential to actually deal with issues and then let them fall. The same thing happened with Naoto, rather obviously in my opinion, and it upset me.

But then, of course, the end of the game came along and completely ruined what I actually liked about the bosses/dungeons, part of these issues included, so I'll just continue to be immensely dissatisfied with that aspect and sit quietly in my corner otherwise. (At least the end of P3 aligned with the rest of it.)

[theeternalmind]

Which end of the game? There's like three different ones.

ALSO I WILL TOTALLY DISCUSS PERSONA 4 WITH YOU FOREVER

I agree with a lot of characterization stuff getting unfortunately brushed aside in favor of the plot. Like, for example, Yukiko and Kanji are childhood friends, but they frankly treat each other like strangers for most of the game, which to me is a terrible waste of a potential dynamic. I also went :| at how Naoto was treated post-spoilers--it's not like he's treated poorly, it's just, "Oh, and now he is [spoilers], let's treat him exactly like that from now on." I know in Kanji's case, his sexuality was meant to be left ambiguous--the director didn't want to say for sure whether he was gay or just confused--but it just sort of... yeah, didn't go much of anywhere. (Of course, I never finished his Social Link, so.)

[cruxis]

The full/complete/'right' one. But all of them are dissatisfying in their own way, as far as I'm concerned.

I LOVE DISCUSSIONS /o/

See, I didn't even know Yukiko and Kanji were childhood friends; my memory's notoriously poor, but that sounds like something I'd've heard. Or at least, should have heard. And yes, that's exactly it, but too, I'd've preferred to see Naoto's actual issue adressed instead of just being written off as a. Familial obligation? I think the game really... argh, I just feel like I got completely teased into thinking that wow, this game is actually crossing some lines and dealing with things, and then it just let me down.

Kanji's social link was adorable and I really enjoyed it, but it didn't deal with any of the issues his dungeon raised. You got to know him better, sure, but yeah. I don't mind that there was no confirmation of his sexuality, much as my wording may have suggested otherwise, I was just frustrated by the complete discarding of those issues.

... But I'm apt to blame it on what I see as the terribly poor writing of the ending. I really, really hated the ending of the game. I should finish my complete replay so I actually do get all the social links etc. and remind myself how it finishes, my memory is far too bad for me to have this sort of venom.

/BLATHERS ON FOREVER

[theeternalmind]

It's stated explicitly in the game when Kanji first starts appearing; Yukiko is the one who recognizes him from the Midnight Channel because she had that connection with him. But since nothing is ever really done with it beyond getting her to be the one who recognizes him, I'm not surprised that you forgot about it.

We should probably discuss the endings on... another journal?? Because we shouldn't COMPLETELY spoil Gargie, even if I get the feeling she's already pretty spoiled, and I personally was pretty okay with the Good and True endings. The Neutral ending was totally unsatisfying, though, and I've never seen the Bad ending.

(also eeee darker than black <3)

[gargantsurprise]

I am pretty damn spoiled, but admittedly don't know how things wrap up. So yeah, this is giving me 'I wonder what V.S. means?' incentive, so no ending spoilers please! :>

[cruxis]

I see! Thanks for the reminder, then, because yeah, horrible memory + long time ago = totally forgotten. I fail as a critic and other things.

I agree with this sentiment as well; I would prefer not to spoil anyone who does not wish to be spoiled, therefore. I am going to add you, is that alright? |D I've wanted to for a long time, you seem like an awesome person to talk to. I will make some post for talking about this sometime later today.

(indeeeeeeeeeed! /o/)

[theeternalmind]

Haha! No worries, I have the advantage here because I played P4 for the first time two months ago, and I'm currently playing Adachi on a game called Persona MUSH (this also leads to me talking about NOTHING BUT THIS FOR FOREVER so yeah there are a lot of posts on these things on my LJ lately), so I get lots of reminders all the time.

AND YES I would love for us to add each other! I likewise have wanted to add you for a while, I just. Never had the opportunity to say "HEY YOU SEEM COOL LET'S FRIEND EACH OTHER" X)

[gargantsurprise]

The girls being willing to compensate for the cooking disaster is reasonable enough. They were enthusiastic about it, and it did go wrong, and if I were in their shoes I'd probably feel the same. It's just the method of payment that bothers me, and the sheer fact that Yosuke thinks he can even do that, and the fact that we as Souji are not allowed to object at all. And of course, the girls ask you to stop staring and saying things, but if you compliment one of them? Sure, they scold you, but they still ~secretly like it~.

Yeah, they push the boys into the river, but not until after fanservice has been achieved. Their discomfort doesn't seem to matter, and it feels like the game just has Yosuke's douche ex machina in place so the girls can't avoid becoming objects of fanservice but IT'S OKAY MAN THEY LOVE PARADING FOR THE GUYS REALLY. I generally agree with you about the friendship dynamics in P4 being superior, but... this whole scene makes me really unhappy, both objectively and on a personal level. From the perspective of characters involved, and from a writing perspective.

I have no time or patience for Yosuke, unfortunately. I have read fabulous meta on him, and it's not been able to change my stance at all. I do not like him, but quietly hold faith that in another three or four years time he'll have matured beyond the Yosuke he is today.

This comment is taking me a horrible amount of time, and I'm not articulating myself well at all, and. I think, really, though I said I was willing to discuss this, there's maybe not much I can discuss. I should be able to look at this game objectively, but instead I apply everything very, very strongly to my own personal feelings of how I would feel in Girl X's shoes. The answer is almost invariably negative, and it shakes me up when the game is so widely adored by so many people.

This links into what you're saying about Naoto and Kanji's issues being dropped as well. Yes, I agree, that whole matter is infuriating. After having the game built up to me as being progressive and something other than heteronormative, it doesn't sufficiently explore any of the issues it threatens to. The Naoto and Kanji examples are the ones that people tend to talk about in fandom, from what I've seen, and... I'm glad the problems there are recognised. But the fact that people seem so willing to just shrug over so many other terrible attitudes and contradictions in the game just drives me to distraction.

The long and short of this is, there is genderfail in P4. However, it's hard for me to judge the extremity, because what there is? Just hits all my buttons. Which makes me feel like I'm being emotional and illogical, which I hate, but... also I can not quite bring myself to proof read this comment. (I said I was good to discuss this, so don't feel bad or anything, but MAN does it ever turn out I was wrong about that. What on earth does this game do to me, I don't even. ffff. THAT DOESN'T MEAN I DON'T WANT YOU TO REPLY/I'M NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS. I am just. not a very interesting person to bounce off about this, apparently.)

[cruxis]

It's just the method of payment that bothers me, and the sheer fact that Yosuke thinks he can even do that, and the fact that we as Souji are not allowed to object at all. And of course, the girls ask you to stop staring and saying things, but if you compliment one of them? Sure, they scold you, but they still ~secretly like it~.

I don't think Yosuke does think he can do that. From what I can tell, he doesn't seem like an extremely confident person, which is why he overcompensates in the opposite direction by coming across in a demanding/expectant way.

And of course, the girls ask you to stop staring and saying things, but if you compliment one of them? Sure, they scold you, but they still ~secretly like it~.

Which I would say is why they agreed to do so in the first place. They were never forced. Maybe you're very sensitive to the idea of peer pressure, but I do not see them as having been forced. They agreed, therefore them secretly enjoying being admired doesn't surprise me or really bother me.

Yeah, they push the boys into the river, but not until after fanservice has been achieved. Their discomfort doesn't seem to matter, and it feels like the game just has Yosuke's douche ex machina in place so the girls can't avoid becoming objects of fanservice but IT'S OKAY MAN THEY LOVE PARADING FOR THE GUYS REALLY.

I'm confused. Do you have a problem with the writing of the game, therefore the inclusion of fanservice, or with the characters themselves? They're very separate, as far as I'm concerned. Or is it your dislike of Yosuke that colours your distaste of this scene so strongly? Like I said, I can see this sort of thing happening between a bunch of good friends without the overt issues we're raising here. Is it because we, as outsiders, are observing it? Is that what makes it so uncomfortable? I don't think anyone thought they were being watched. Maybe this isn't how the group dynamics work overtly, in public, but in a private locale, why is it such a problem? I think it's very important to separate the characters themselves from how they get depicted. /makes sense rly

That's unfortunate, I think, though I understand. I'm unreasonable in my hatred of Yuan certain characters. I'm not going to keep talking at you, though, if it isn't going to make any difference because of that stance. No offense. You're completely welcome to your opinions and I'm not trying to convince you to like the game (since I'm not the biggest fan of it myself), but I don't really want to waste my time trying to discuss something when it isn't going to go anywhere.

Heteronormativity, what a buzz word. I was so, so fucking pleased to see a positive step away from it, and then just ignored. Or, worse in my opinion, reinterpreted into things that are more ~acceptable~.

Haha, no worries. I'll back off now, though.

[paperclipchains]

Look, just because he's doing it because he's a sad woobie on the inside does not mean his behaviour is any less entitled and does not detract from the fact that he does this to them not once, but twice.

[cruxis]

Look, if you're going to speak to me in a dismissive and self-important tone, I have nothing to say to you.

[paperclipchains]

You're pretty thin skinned, bb.

[theeternalmind]

And you're pretty condescending.

[paperclipchains]

and the fact that we as Souji are not allowed to object at all.

THIS is the part that pissed me off. I was trying to play my Souji as being fundamentally opposed to Yosuke's douchebaggy shenanigans, but no.

I have no time or patience for Yosuke, unfortunately. I have read fabulous meta on him, and it's not been able to change my stance at all. I do not like him, but quietly hold faith that in another three or four years time he'll have matured beyond the Yosuke he is today.

I feel exactly the same way and I wish people would stop trying to "convert" me.

The long and short of this is, there is genderfail in P4. However, it's hard for me to judge the extremity, because what there is? Just hits all my buttons. Which makes me feel like I'm being emotional and illogical, which I hate, but... also I can not quite bring myself to proof read this comment.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being emotional about genderfail. Personally I tend to pick out this shit intuitively - the fact that you're able to articulate exactly what the problem is, well, that usually takes me a while! I personally feel the swimsuit examples and whatnot are a lot more insidious - they aren't discussed by fandom at large (Kanji and Naoto provide more tangible "distractions" more relevant to fandom interest) or treated by the game as wrong. Nobody in fandom ever wants to implicate Yosuke for behaving that way (possibly because they are all busy shipping him with Souji or using it as evidence of his insecurity in his sexuality).

Anyway, I'm linking this post to D!chat later for discussion~