Short luteal phase and agnus castus

[elettaria]

Well, my gynae's taking me off the progestogen (Cerazette/desogestrel) for the PMS as it doesn't seem to be doing me any good. She sounded worryingly like she's not going to try any other treatment on me, though she's going to consult my GP to weigh up the risks of putting me on cyclical Prozac

Comments

[tritsy]

how strange that you mention this -- i was *just* discussing this with a friend of mine who teaches the creighton method (very similar to fam). she's noticed a trend in her clients who suffer from intense PMS symptoms -- ALL of them have short luteal phases (less than 10 days). she's looking at the results of her clients that take oral supplents versus those that use natural progesterone creams. supplementing progesterone in any form, although capsules of prometrium (here in the states) taken by mouth seems to give the best controlled response, both increase luteal phase and lessen the symptoms of PMS.

i'm a pharmacist here in the states and advocate people seeking natural remedies (if possible) before seeking prescription therapy. vitex is a great choice, but i would advise avoiding progesterone supplements as it may affect the feedback mechanism in the pituitary gland regulating your cycle (that's how vitex works). i would take the vitex OR supplement with progesterone after you note ovulation. the progesterone is likely to give you an immediate response within a cycle or two. vitex could take up to 6 months or possible not work.

good luck! i'd love to hear how things turn out for you (if you don't mind..)

[elettaria]

How interesting about the luteal phase/PMS connection. I didn't really get a chance to ask my gynae about it, she seems to be rather scornful of FAM charting. It's really annoying me, because from what I've picked up it's a significant hormonal disorder, and were I trying to conceive they'd have to be paying attention to it, I'd presumably be miscarrying continually. Do you know anything more about this? I've only been charting since Feb, so I don't know what my luteal phase was like before the PMS hit (which was a year ago).

I'm not going to try progesterone anyway, no one in the UK is in favour of it (apart from the woman on the NAPS helpline, who is way out of date) as it's not been shown to be more use than placebo in research. It was popular a few decades ago, but the research didn't bear it out.

I've just marshalled a small army of pills into those little pill reminder boxes, hopefully I'll remember to take stuff this way. Whenever I try to take vitamin supplements or herbal tinctures (vits need to be taken with meals, tinctures have to be measured into a glass of water which is a nuisance), I can never remember enough to keep it up (I do have genuine memory problems). However, I was OK taking the Cerazette, only one missed and three late tablets in three months, and I think it was because I took it when I took my temp, which I set an alarm for. Vitex is meant to be taken first thing, so hopefully I can just continue that little routine, and having the mini box with the day's pills in it by my bed will be enough to remind me to take the others when I eat.

Here's what I'm planning, does it sound reasonable to you? At the moment, this'll be daily. I've checked a good few sources on vitex, including asking a herbalist, and they mostly agree to take it all the way through the cycle, and generally say give it 3-4 months to see if it's working. I wasn't going to bother with evening primrose oil, but I just opened a cupboard and discovered that I have two and a have bottles of the stuff, so I may as well until it runs out. I think I'll take the EPO daily for a cycle, then just during my luteal phase.

Vitex - 1.6 mg at 9 am
General multivitamin (has some minerals, not enough)
Multimineral (mostly makes up the mineral content, apart from Ca and Mg)
Calcium, magnesium and zinc (brings the minerals up to scratch and I'm now on a good dose of Ca and Mg, both recommended for PMS)
3000 mg EPO - daily for one cycle, then in luteal phase and/or lower dose
Try to stick to eating a complex carb every 2-3 hours during my luteal phase

[tritsy]

it is unfortunate that most physicians seem clueless to the female cycle and how things really work. it's sadder that most people take what a physician tells them as rule without doing any research themselves. i've also found that many ob/gyns wrongly think that charting is the same as the rhythym method and give an unfavorable response. it is very frustrating.

your supplementation looks good to me. are you taking the vitex in tincture? be sure that you don't take more than 600mg of calcium (elemental) at a time for optimal absorbtion. i've read several different opinions with good evidence that EPO can be helpful for PMS at high doses since it's thought that PMS sufferes have a deficiency in long-chain fatty acids (like those found in EPO, fish oil, cod liver oil, etc).

you are correct in that women with short luteal phases tend to miscarry more than those who have longer luteal phases, hence the reason for high dose oral progesterone supplementation until the 12th or 13th week of pregnancy when the placenta begins producing hormones. since luteal phases tend to be consistent for a woman (vary widely across the population), there's a strong possibility you've had short luteal phases without knowing.. which.. if they aren't balanced or extended *could* lead for problems with pregnancy down the road.

all the more reason to continue charting :)

[elettaria]

The vitex is in capsules as I'm crap at taking tinctures (proven enough times by now), but it's a reputable brand at least. It's 1033 mg of the calcium, will it really matter if I take it all at once? With my memory problems, we're doing well if I take it at all.

It's probably a good thing I'm not using FAM for contraception (apart from anything else, I wouldn't be suited to it), my gynae would have a fit.

My mother had trouble with repeated miscarriages when she was my age, and she was put on progesterone injections so as not to lose me when she was pregnant with me. She later had perimenopausal oestrogen-dominant breast cancer, so I have a strong feeling that hormonal problems of this sort are running in the family as a luteal phase defect apparently causes oestrogen dominance.

[tritsy]

the body is only able to absorb 600mg of calcium at a time, no matter what form it is in (carbonate, citrate, gluconate, etc). so if you take over 600mg, you are essentially wasting that calcium. it will not be absorbed and you'll just poop it out.

i don't think it matters whether the vitex is in tincture form or capsule form, as long as it says "standardized to contain 0.6% agusides".

estrogen dominance can definitely be a cause of poor progesterone/short luteal phases. hearing more history, it sounds like vitex is a good way to start!

[elettaria]

Thanks for the warning, I'll try to remember to take it in two doses then. How far apart need they be?

[elettaria]

By the way, my period's come back two days after I came off the Cerazette, much sooner than I expected. Any idea whether that means that I should be getting a normal(ish) cycle now, or could it just be random bleeding?

[tritsy]

when cycles return and become regular after use of HBC varies from woman to woman. some women ovulate regularly a month or two after, some ovulate for a month then deal with more varied cycles, some women don't ovulate at all for many months.

if i had to guess, i would begin your charting as your first day of bleeding as day 1 of a normal cycle and see where it goes from there. best of luck to you on this journey!