War links

[erudito]

The siege of Cadiz as central in the defeat of Napoleon.

Newsreel of the Japanese surrender on the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay. (The Allied signatories in order are Macarthur as Allied Supreme Commander, the US, China, UK, USSR, Australia, Canada, France, Netherlands, New Zealand.)

Looking at the nuclear alertness issue. A shortage of Helium3 is

Comments

[findalexh]

Why is it that we can't see the threat Hitler presented, or that Islam presents? With Islam we have in excess of 1000 years of Muslims trying to conquer the world by force, why is this even being debated?

[tcpip]

Because Islam isn't a threat any more than Christianity or Germans.

[findalexh]

I'm sorry but that's just wrong and it's exactly the attitude I can't understand

[tcpip]

If you want a whole raft of quotes from the Koran and Hadith I'll supply them.

Contextual studies show that the Koran and the Bible advocate violence against others in roughly equal portions. There is variation between the number of passages (the Bible "wins") or the number of passages on a per page basis (the Koran "wins").

But frankly, I simply don't care for that argument.

I am interested on what people do. Note the creed that they claim justifies their actions.

If a Christian can be peaceful, then all Christians can be peaceful. If a Muslim can be peaceful, all Muslims can be peaceful. For it is not Christianity or Islam that is violent, but the people who act in its name.

Logic

[erudito]

The logic of belief is not necessarily the logic of believers, that is true.

But measuring passages advocating violence is not a particularly useful metric. There is a vast difference in, for example, how Jesus and Muhammad deal with rejection.

[findalexh]

"Contextual studies show

[tcpip]

Can you show me Jesus, John or Paul advocating violence or war?

I could go into detail, but the following will do.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

One of these men is a leader who may be followed with a clear conscience.

I'd prefer not to follow anyone and have a clear conscience.

Or Iran with nukes in 2012. Catch the news headlines tonight?

Yes. "An Iranian-hosted international disarmament conference concluded Sunday with a demand that Israel join the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to assure a nuclear weapons-free Middle East."

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[findalexh]

Skeptics is pretty weak and I'm unimpressed. Christians do the same thing to evolutionists and if you don't read it in context it would seem that Stephen Jay Gould doesn't believe in evolution. Now, if you could find a good text like "Institutes of Religion" or "City of God" justifying war for the expansion of the Christian empire I'd be more impressed. As it is you haven't supplied even a verse taken out of context. It also doesn't address the original question unless I missed something. Where does it mention war

[tcpip]

Skeptics is pretty weak and I'm unimpressed

*shrug* Nevertheless they are examples where the NT advocates violence and cruelty.

Now, if you could find a good text like "Institutes of Religion" or "City of God" justifying war for the expansion of the Christian empire I'd be more impressed.

Which would be unfortunate and intellectually slippery , because you asked for references from the New Testament. That said, I find the advocacy of war in City of God not very different at between the Islamic distinction between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb.

When put into context do those verses become poetry, simile or metaphor which is not meant to be taken literally? No.Actually, the context is everything

[findalexh]

City of God doesn't call for war against the unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers.

Context is everything, which is why nothing on skeptics is worth repeating but that particular formulation is repeated throughout the Koran in a variety of contexts and it keeps coming back to the same point. Muslims are called to war against the unbeliever, in the Quran, in the Hadith and in the action of the ideal Muslim, Mohammed.

Your support of the destruction of Israel is intellectual. Iran's call for the destruction of Israel is somewhat more genocidal.

What I believe in is avoiding the slaughter of millions of people, I'm not a fan of Palestine or the Jewish treatment of Palestinians.

Actually I prefer Christianity when it doesn't suit me. Ghandi said it was a fine religion, just a pity about the Christians. A very accurate comment in my opinion.

None of the above changes the fact that Islam calls for war, deception, hatred and judgement making it a threat to the non Muslim world.

[tcpip]

City of God doesn't call for war against the unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers.

And nor does the Qua'ran if you'd could actually care to trouble yourself to read it. The relevant section was already linked.

Iran's call for the destruction of Israel is somewhat more genocidal

"Iran" has made no such comment as "Iran" does not speak. Collective responsibility for individual acts seems to be a running theme in your thought.

And that aside, if you are talking about governments, Ahmadinejad has not called for genocide against Jews either. Even a modicum of research indicates this and I plead to you to engage in this.

None of the above changes the fact that Islam calls for war, deception, hatred and judgement making it a threat to the non Muslim world.

That is a statement that suggests religious bigotry and which, as been shown, has no basis in fact.

[findalexh]

I have read the Koran, cover to cover. The section quoted above is only one of many

[tcpip]

I have read the Koran, cover to cover. The section quoted above is only one of many.... I can present facts like Islamic history and theological positions held by Muslims

So did you just forget the context of the oft-cited quote that you provided, or did you overlook it deliberately?

Perhaps your asserted knowledge of Islamic theology is a little less than you claim it is?

Collective responsibility for individual acts is often reality. Deal with it

Just because it's a reality imposed by those with especially low moral reasoning, doesn't make it right. Rather than Objectivist depravity, you have sinking towards Christian depravity. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

I would however, plead with you to do some research on Islam, starting with titles like "Why I am not a Muslim"...

Already read it. I largely agree with it.