War links

[erudito]

The siege of Cadiz as central in the defeat of Napoleon.

Newsreel of the Japanese surrender on the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay. (The Allied signatories in order are Macarthur as Allied Supreme Commander, the US, China, UK, USSR, Australia, Canada, France, Netherlands, New Zealand.)

Looking at the nuclear alertness issue. A shortage of Helium3 is

Comments

[findalexh]

"Contextual studies show..."

Put those quotes in context. Can you show me Jesus, John or Paul advocating violence or war? Early Christians refused to admit soldiers to their ranks. Another perversion of the Christian message, true, but makes my point nicely.

The point I'm making here is Christ preached peace, honesty, trust, love and marital fidelity. Mohammed preached war, deception, hatred and having exempted himself from his own rules on marriage, proceeded to consummate a marriage with a nine year old.

One of these men is a leader who may be followed with a clear conscience.

"If a Christian can be peaceful..."

Frankly I don't care for that argument. No man operates in a vacuum. Particularly in 3rd world countries where the only schooling available is the Madrassa which preaches and teaches the Koran and only the Koran.

I'd be worried if I lived somewhere neighbouring a country raising it's children in a fascist, militaristic education system with an undercurrent of violence and expansionism, like, oh, Poland in 1938.

Or Iran with nukes in 2012. Catch the news headlines tonight?

[tcpip]

Can you show me Jesus, John or Paul advocating violence or war?

I could go into detail, but the following will do.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

One of these men is a leader who may be followed with a clear conscience.

I'd prefer not to follow anyone and have a clear conscience.

Or Iran with nukes in 2012. Catch the news headlines tonight?

Yes. "An Iranian-hosted international disarmament conference concluded Sunday with a demand that Israel join the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to assure a nuclear weapons-free Middle East."

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[findalexh]

Skeptics is pretty weak and I'm unimpressed. Christians do the same thing to evolutionists and if you don't read it in context it would seem that Stephen Jay Gould doesn't believe in evolution. Now, if you could find a good text like "Institutes of Religion" or "City of God" justifying war for the expansion of the Christian empire I'd be more impressed. As it is you haven't supplied even a verse taken out of context. It also doesn't address the original question unless I missed something. Where does it mention war?

Flip over to the Koran and it's a very different story. Try

"War is ordained by Allah and all Muslims must be willing to fight whether they like it or not"

"Kill disbelievers where ever you find them"

When put into context do those verses become poetry, simile or metaphor which is not meant to be taken literally? No.

You might prefer not to follow someone, unfortunately it's part of the human condition. Your thought processes are fed by someone somewhere and if they weren't you wouldn't be conversing in English. Much of the way you think, speak and behave has direct relationship to your Christian heritage, whether you like it or not. Maybe you should ask yourself whether you'd prefer the life you have as a citizen of the Judeo-Christian West or would you perhaps like to have been born in say, Iran.

Israel giving up on nukes would be fantastic, all we need is for Muslims to stop calling for the immediate destruction of Israel and mean it. Two problems. First, that simply isn't going to happen is it? Second, could you trust them if they did? It's exactly the situation Muslims are encouraged to lie about.

[tcpip]

Skeptics is pretty weak and I'm unimpressed

*shrug* Nevertheless they are examples where the NT advocates violence and cruelty.

Now, if you could find a good text like "Institutes of Religion" or "City of God" justifying war for the expansion of the Christian empire I'd be more impressed.

Which would be unfortunate and intellectually slippery , because you asked for references from the New Testament. That said, I find the advocacy of war in City of God not very different at between the Islamic distinction between dar al-Islam and dar al-harb.

When put into context do those verses become poetry, simile or metaphor which is not meant to be taken literally? No.

Actually, the context is everything.

e.g.,
http://infideltaskforce.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/1314945-out-of-context-quote-of-the-quran-caught-red-handed-truth-exposed-in-the-excessive-misquoting-of-this-verse-quran-sura-9-verse-5-

Israel giving up on nukes would be fantastic, all we need is for Muslims to stop calling for the immediate destruction of Israel and mean it.

I support the immediate destruction of Israel. As do many orthodox Jews, and in the same way.

But it's nice to see that you believe in an imperial state holding the rest of the region to ransom through military force.

Oh well, Christianity when it suits you I suppose. What was it that Ghandi said about that religion?

[findalexh]

City of God doesn't call for war against the unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers.

Context is everything, which is why nothing on skeptics is worth repeating but that particular formulation is repeated throughout the Koran in a variety of contexts and it keeps coming back to the same point. Muslims are called to war against the unbeliever, in the Quran, in the Hadith and in the action of the ideal Muslim, Mohammed.

Your support of the destruction of Israel is intellectual. Iran's call for the destruction of Israel is somewhat more genocidal.

What I believe in is avoiding the slaughter of millions of people, I'm not a fan of Palestine or the Jewish treatment of Palestinians.

Actually I prefer Christianity when it doesn't suit me. Ghandi said it was a fine religion, just a pity about the Christians. A very accurate comment in my opinion.

None of the above changes the fact that Islam calls for war, deception, hatred and judgement making it a threat to the non Muslim world.

[tcpip]

City of God doesn't call for war against the unbelievers simply because they are unbelievers.

And nor does the Qua'ran if you'd could actually care to trouble yourself to read it. The relevant section was already linked.

Iran's call for the destruction of Israel is somewhat more genocidal

"Iran" has made no such comment as "Iran" does not speak. Collective responsibility for individual acts seems to be a running theme in your thought.

And that aside, if you are talking about governments, Ahmadinejad has not called for genocide against Jews either. Even a modicum of research indicates this and I plead to you to engage in this.

None of the above changes the fact that Islam calls for war, deception, hatred and judgement making it a threat to the non Muslim world.

That is a statement that suggests religious bigotry and which, as been shown, has no basis in fact.

[findalexh]

I have read the Koran, cover to cover. The section quoted above is only one of many.

Yeah, there isn't a hint of genocide in the constant call for the disolution of Israel by various Muslims, including Iranians. And there wasn't a hint of sarcasm in the previous sentence.

Collective responsibility for individual acts is often reality. Deal with it and while you're at it, move beyond the intellectually crippling individualism, pluralism politically correctness of the early 21st Century.

My statement is a reflection of years of apologising for Islam to bigoted people until, as I've noted in my journal, I had a dummy spit earlier this year. I realise I'm not politically correct, but then I actually do know what I'm talking about, I can present facts like Islamic history and theological positions held by Muslims. So far you have not. You have completely avoided some questions and mis-directed others.

My assessment largely agrees with that of many ex-Muslims, including the recently defected son of Hamas leader.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703915204575103481069258868.html

The fundamental underpinnings of Islam are evil, I doubt you're going to change your mind on the topic and I'm certainly not going to change mine after taking 15 years to come to my point of view. I would however, plead with you to do some research on Islam, starting with titles like "Why I am not a Muslim" or "Islam Revealed" or "Islam in our Backyard."

Post whatever you like, I won't be replying.

[tcpip]

I have read the Koran, cover to cover. The section quoted above is only one of many.... I can present facts like Islamic history and theological positions held by Muslims

So did you just forget the context of the oft-cited quote that you provided, or did you overlook it deliberately?

Perhaps your asserted knowledge of Islamic theology is a little less than you claim it is?

Collective responsibility for individual acts is often reality. Deal with it

Just because it's a reality imposed by those with especially low moral reasoning, doesn't make it right. Rather than Objectivist depravity, you have sinking towards Christian depravity. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

I would however, plead with you to do some research on Islam, starting with titles like "Why I am not a Muslim"...

Already read it. I largely agree with it.