ELISI ELISI I SAW YOU POSTED THIS AND FREAKED OUT AND I HAVEN'T READ IT YET. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ JUST NOW SO I WILL COME BACK I JUST HAD TO HYPERVENTILATE AT YOU FIRST.
And ALSO I had to tell you two things:
(1) I posted my 2nd lot of Eye meta last week! I don't know if you saw it? You are probably the only person who would care, so I'm just flagging it up :-)
(2) That vid I mentioned that such_heights and I were making that you will love? We JUST posted it! :-D Head over to her journal and enjoy :-)
Ok, will come back and read this in a bit when I have all the time to properly enjoy it. <3333 (well done for getting your brain to co-operate!)
ELISI ELISI I SAW YOU POSTED THIS AND FREAKED OUT AND I HAVEN'T READ IT YET. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ JUST NOW SO I WILL COME BACK I JUST HAD TO HYPERVENTILATE AT YOU FIRST.
( ... )
I figured you probably hadn't seen it :-) I look forward to alllllll the discussion of EVERYTHING later, when I'm not posting a vid and baking flapjacks and about to leave the house to hang out with friends in three dimensions. Later tonight!
Mmmmmmmm this was all just as delicious as I was expecting. <3
Because if Clara is a Doctor mirror, then Danny is her River. I'm *so* glad you talked about this - I touched on it vv briefly in my Soldiers in S8 'meta' (if you can call it that - it was more like 4000 words of brain-dumping) but you've dissected it much more thoroughly here. It makes me think that I really ought to have seen Danny's ending coming much sooner than I did…they both even end up inside giant computers.
Because we've been on a cycle of symbolism. We started out with the water and world trees, and we moved through all the death symbolism, and that progressed into eggs and flowers and birds, and it's like just at the moment when everything should have burst into blossom . . . it all turned to rot. Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
Danny was Clara’s future, her ‘blossoming’ - they were going to marry,
( ... )
Also notice how rejecting the warrior role is what helps solve the problem and saves the day. He passes that role to Danny (with whom it sits far more comfortably), and the dead soldier gets the big hero theme and the big speech. I have lots of thoughts about this, but haven't really got them into shape yet. I LOVED the way he decided on 'idiot' as his epithet, and is making a conscious effort to return to the roots of who he is, and I'm glad he's rejecting all the false dichotomies he's set up for himself (good man/bad man, etc) because they're unhelpful. I hope he is now a little happier in himself. BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one. He likes to give the orders. He likes to be in charge. He gets antsy when his authority is questioned, or people try to give him orders. And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to
( ... )
BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one.
And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way
- So much YES. “I’ve got them. Always them.” An unfortunate side-effect of which is that when the Doctor does need an army, even if he may not want one, they do have to die for him. I wish I could love this line without also hearing Clara from “Kill the Moon” saying “Honestly, do you have music playing in your head when you say rubbish like that?”
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
Hee! Thank you so much! We had a lot of fun with that bit - with that whole section, actually. The 'how have they influenced each other's life choices' section. Glad you liked!
As for the meta thing - omg I had completely forgotten that quote about music playing in his head. (Definitely a strong contender for 'most meta line to ever meta') Yes. It's not that I think he's wrong to proclaim himself just 'an idiot' who wants to help - far from it, I think that kind of humility is wonderful - I just think it's kind of hypocritical. Because he IS a 2000-and-something-year-old Time Lord, he does have this unique perspective on time/history/the universe which does give him kind of a good basis to be the person giving the orders...but it's the way he explicitly rejects being given ACTUAL power ('I'm not a president!' 'Stop saluting' etc) whilst still expecting people to listen to him and obey his every
( ... )
BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one. He likes to give the orders. He likes to be in charge. He gets antsy when his authority is questioned, or people try to give him orders. He's from an officer class. Oldest and mightiest in the universe. He fought on Trenzalore for a long long time (also all of River's arc etc etc - the whole thing about the Silence), and Twelve is a very harsh reaction against this, but as you say, it's not that easy to let go. He can't just reject that side, he needs to embrace it more. (Eleven was more upfront/accepting of this, funnily enough. But then he was a Pond.)
It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way. And since this episode, as you point out, is all about dark reflections in dark water, let's look quickly at the negative side: as Davros pointed out way back when, his companions tend to become his soldiers, his weapons. He doesn't
( ... )
It makes me think that I really ought to have seen Danny's ending coming much sooner than I did…they both even end up inside giant computers. Oh man, they do! And didn't we say from very early on in the Nethersphere thing that it seemed like it should be a continuation of the Library/Great Intelligence computer thing?
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to... I almost feel like we need to reverse the polarity? I mean like flipping a filter. Because it's not like Missy co-opted some of the symbols or something; she co-opted allllllll of them: there's evil water and evil clouds and an evil world axis and evil eggs and evil flowers. We were going along and you could see the pattern/cycle forming, and at the moment when it should have all come together, a switch was flipped and you could see the whole thing in negative. So the original is still there, does that make sense?
And didn't we say from very early on in the Nethersphere thing that it seemed like it should be a continuation of the Library/Great Intelligence computer thing? YES, YES WE DID. Which makes me feel even more stupid... :-P I kind of predicted the 'overcoming his programming' part - in my meta I wrote about him potentially going on a journey 'from unintentional-killer to saviour', just like River, but kind of forgot about River's ultimate ending...oops.
So the original is still there, does that make sense? It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that.
I almost feel like it makes it more likely *headdesk* Moffat has a talent for doing what he shouldn't. Mmmm. You have a very good point. And I'm so conflicted about it, almost entirely because they've already DONE a pregnancy storyline in S6. My objections have absolutely nothing to do with Clara and her storyline and the Watsonian understanding of everything (because from that angle it makes so much SENSE
( ... )
YES, YES WE DID. Which makes me feel even more stupid... :-P I kind of predicted the 'overcoming his programming' part - in my meta I wrote about him potentially going on a journey 'from unintentional-killer to saviour', just like River, but kind of forgot about River's ultimate ending...oops. There's just so much *stuff* anymore. My brain can hardly move under it. And I am looking forward to reading your meta (got it open in a tab). Thanks for pointing it out, because I totally missed it.
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma.
It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that. Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family?
It's literally the Doyalist fact that there's already been a pregnancy storyline in Moffat's run that would make me uneasy.I hear you. And it wasn't exactly well-handled the first time around. The positive spin on this is that Moffat *does* repeat himself,
( ... )
I am looking forward to reading your meta (got it open in a tab). Ahaha, it might not be quite what you're used to...this was literally me brain-dumping during my lunchbreak at work one day, because I couldn't think about anything else until I'd written everything Doctor Who out of my head...it's part meta, part theorising, part headcanoning, part...general rambling. Enjoy! :-P
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma. Ooooh, another v good point. Which child in particular did you mean for River? There's her children inside CAL, but there's also Amy, who she ends up looking out for in a weird timey-wimey way...
Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family? YES PLZ.
Moffat *does* repeat himself, deliberately. It's how he writes, in all these iterative passes. If he went back and did it again, I'd take it as an understanding that we would be refining and building from the first pass. <3 to you and Moffat!
So, how slow can I be in replying to comments? This slow, apparently. (December... /o\)
they both even end up inside giant computers. I can't believe I didn't make that connection until you pointed it out!
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to... LOL. But where next? Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong.
but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's. She's been surrounded by all that egg imagery since Asylum (the episode which had that whole discussion of Amy's infertility) and she's been consistently associated with children throughout her run. Do you have any thoughts on the likelihood of this?I'm torn. If Danny doesn't come back, then her being pregnant now would be the only way for the timelines to stay put. Going on what knowledge we have. I'm sort of loath to speculate
( ... )
I can't believe I didn't make that connection until you pointed it out! My favourite thing about fandom is how collaborative it can be :-) *I* can't believe I didn't realise Danny would end up inside a giant computer as soon as I started noticing the parallels…
Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong. And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it.
I have another Clara theory that I will post today, so…ARGH SO EXCITED. AND INTRIGUED. I'll be out this evening, but will inevitably come to ooh and aaah and flail tomorrow. I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could
( ... )
My favourite thing about fandom is how collaborative it can be :-) *I* can't believe I didn't realise Danny would end up inside a giant computer as soon as I started noticing the parallels… To be fair, there are SO MANY things going on now...
And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it. Mmmm yes. Bossy control freak in charge of the most powerful nation the universe has ever seen.
I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could just have gone. That happens all the time in DW.I honestly have no idea. Unless they bring Danny back. That also happens all the time. Danny could be
( ... )
And ALSO I had to tell you two things:
(1) I posted my 2nd lot of Eye meta last week! I don't know if you saw it? You are probably the only person who would care, so I'm just flagging it up :-)
(2) That vid I mentioned that such_heights and I were making that you will love? We JUST posted it! :-D Head over to her journal and enjoy :-)
Ok, will come back and read this in a bit when I have all the time to properly enjoy it. <3333 (well done for getting your brain to co-operate!)
Reply
( ... )
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HAVE FUN, will see you later. ♥ ♥ ♥
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Because if Clara is a Doctor mirror, then Danny is her River.
I'm *so* glad you talked about this - I touched on it vv briefly in my Soldiers in S8 'meta' (if you can call it that - it was more like 4000 words of brain-dumping) but you've dissected it much more thoroughly here. It makes me think that I really ought to have seen Danny's ending coming much sooner than I did…they both even end up inside giant computers.
Because we've been on a cycle of symbolism. We started out with the water and world trees, and we moved through all the death symbolism, and that progressed into eggs and flowers and birds, and it's like just at the moment when everything should have burst into blossom . . . it all turned to rot.
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
Danny was Clara’s future, her ‘blossoming’ - they were going to marry, ( ... )
Reply
I have lots of thoughts about this, but haven't really got them into shape yet. I LOVED the way he decided on 'idiot' as his epithet, and is making a conscious effort to return to the roots of who he is, and I'm glad he's rejecting all the false dichotomies he's set up for himself (good man/bad man, etc) because they're unhelpful. I hope he is now a little happier in himself. BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one. He likes to give the orders. He likes to be in charge. He gets antsy when his authority is questioned, or people try to give him orders. And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to ( ... )
Reply
And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way
- So much YES. “I’ve got them. Always them.” An unfortunate side-effect of which is that when the Doctor does need an army, even if he may not want one, they do have to die for him. I wish I could love this line without also hearing Clara from “Kill the Moon” saying “Honestly, do you have music playing in your head when you say rubbish like that?”
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
Reply
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
Hee! Thank you so much! We had a lot of fun with that bit - with that whole section, actually. The 'how have they influenced each other's life choices' section. Glad you liked!
As for the meta thing - omg I had completely forgotten that quote about music playing in his head. (Definitely a strong contender for 'most meta line to ever meta') Yes. It's not that I think he's wrong to proclaim himself just 'an idiot' who wants to help - far from it, I think that kind of humility is wonderful - I just think it's kind of hypocritical. Because he IS a 2000-and-something-year-old Time Lord, he does have this unique perspective on time/history/the universe which does give him kind of a good basis to be the person giving the orders...but it's the way he explicitly rejects being given ACTUAL power ('I'm not a president!' 'Stop saluting' etc) whilst still expecting people to listen to him and obey his every ( ... )
Reply
He's from an officer class. Oldest and mightiest in the universe. He fought on Trenzalore for a long long time (also all of River's arc etc etc - the whole thing about the Silence), and Twelve is a very harsh reaction against this, but as you say, it's not that easy to let go. He can't just reject that side, he needs to embrace it more. (Eleven was more upfront/accepting of this, funnily enough. But then he was a Pond.)
It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way. And since this episode, as you point out, is all about dark reflections in dark water, let's look quickly at the negative side: as Davros pointed out way back when, his companions tend to become his soldiers, his weapons. He doesn't ( ... )
Reply
Oh man, they do! And didn't we say from very early on in the Nethersphere thing that it seemed like it should be a continuation of the Library/Great Intelligence computer thing?
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
I almost feel like we need to reverse the polarity? I mean like flipping a filter. Because it's not like Missy co-opted some of the symbols or something; she co-opted allllllll of them: there's evil water and evil clouds and an evil world axis and evil eggs and evil flowers. We were going along and you could see the pattern/cycle forming, and at the moment when it should have all come together, a switch was flipped and you could see the whole thing in negative. So the original is still there, does that make sense?
LOTS of ( ... )
Reply
YES, YES WE DID. Which makes me feel even more stupid... :-P I kind of predicted the 'overcoming his programming' part - in my meta I wrote about him potentially going on a journey 'from unintentional-killer to saviour', just like River, but kind of forgot about River's ultimate ending...oops.
So the original is still there, does that make sense?
It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that.
I almost feel like it makes it more likely *headdesk* Moffat has a talent for doing what he shouldn't.
Mmmm. You have a very good point. And I'm so conflicted about it, almost entirely because they've already DONE a pregnancy storyline in S6. My objections have absolutely nothing to do with Clara and her storyline and the Watsonian understanding of everything (because from that angle it makes so much SENSE ( ... )
Reply
There's just so much *stuff* anymore. My brain can hardly move under it. And I am looking forward to reading your meta (got it open in a tab). Thanks for pointing it out, because I totally missed it.
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma.
It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that.
Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family?
It's literally the Doyalist fact that there's already been a pregnancy storyline in Moffat's run that would make me uneasy.I hear you. And it wasn't exactly well-handled the first time around. The positive spin on this is that Moffat *does* repeat himself, ( ... )
Reply
Ahaha, it might not be quite what you're used to...this was literally me brain-dumping during my lunchbreak at work one day, because I couldn't think about anything else until I'd written everything Doctor Who out of my head...it's part meta, part theorising, part headcanoning, part...general rambling. Enjoy! :-P
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma.
Ooooh, another v good point. Which child in particular did you mean for River? There's her children inside CAL, but there's also Amy, who she ends up looking out for in a weird timey-wimey way...
Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family?
YES PLZ.
Moffat *does* repeat himself, deliberately. It's how he writes, in all these iterative passes. If he went back and did it again, I'd take it as an understanding that we would be refining and building from the first pass.
<3 to you and Moffat!
Reply
they both even end up inside giant computers.
I can't believe I didn't make that connection until you pointed it out!
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
LOL. But where next? Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong.
but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's. She's been surrounded by all that egg imagery since Asylum (the episode which had that whole discussion of Amy's infertility) and she's been consistently associated with children throughout her run. Do you have any thoughts on the likelihood of this?I'm torn. If Danny doesn't come back, then her being pregnant now would be the only way for the timelines to stay put. Going on what knowledge we have. I'm sort of loath to speculate ( ... )
Reply
My favourite thing about fandom is how collaborative it can be :-) *I* can't believe I didn't realise Danny would end up inside a giant computer as soon as I started noticing the parallels…
Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong.
And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it.
I have another Clara theory that I will post today, so…ARGH SO EXCITED. AND INTRIGUED. I'll be out this evening, but will inevitably come to ooh and aaah and flail tomorrow. I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could ( ... )
Reply
To be fair, there are SO MANY things going on now...
And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it.
Mmmm yes. Bossy control freak in charge of the most powerful nation the universe has ever seen.
ARGH SO EXCITED. AND INTRIGUED.
Here you go! :)
I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could just have gone. That happens all the time in DW.I honestly have no idea. Unless they bring Danny back. That also happens all the time. Danny could be ( ... )
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