Mmmmmmmm this was all just as delicious as I was expecting. <3
Because if Clara is a Doctor mirror, then Danny is her River. I'm *so* glad you talked about this - I touched on it vv briefly in my Soldiers in S8 'meta' (if you can call it that - it was more like 4000 words of brain-dumping) but you've dissected it much more thoroughly here. It makes me think that I really ought to have seen Danny's ending coming much sooner than I did…they both even end up inside giant computers.
Because we've been on a cycle of symbolism. We started out with the water and world trees, and we moved through all the death symbolism, and that progressed into eggs and flowers and birds, and it's like just at the moment when everything should have burst into blossom . . . it all turned to rot. Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
Danny was Clara’s future, her ‘blossoming’ - they were going to marry, have children, carry on life. But he dies - and therefore the symbolism follows, which leads to death across the whole Earth. LOTS of people are theorising that Clara is pregnant…which, on the one hand I would be a little concerned about because it would give the Moffat-haters more fuel for their stupid fire ("All his women end up pregnant / he thinks all women want is to have babies" blah blah blah) but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's. She's been surrounded by all that egg imagery since Asylum (the episode which had that whole discussion of Amy's infertility) and she's been consistently associated with children throughout her run. Do you have any thoughts on the likelihood of this?
And when Clara sees her wishes brought to life (the dead Danny in the cybersuit), she recoils in horror, and chooses to instead help him die as he should. As they say - 'be careful what you wish for'. People often describe Moffat Who as a 'fairytale', but it strikes me that there are different kinds of fairytales - there are the 'happily ever after' kind, and there's the other kind where everybody learns a tragic lesson about the harshness of life and probably ends up in pain and/or dead. (Think of the original Little Mermaid, for example.) Obviously, DW is ultimately a hopeful, optimistic, family show (supposedly…) so I REALLY hope that nothing terrible ultimately happens to Clara. I'm pretty sure it won't. But if Amy Pond got the Happily Ever After kind of fairytale, Clara has had the other kind…
He will be Clara’s friend, and help. And that is all he needs to do. (Plus he is paying back a debt - remember how Victorian!Clara helped the Doctor out of his grief/depression after he lost his Ponds. Nothing really to say here other than <3333 She really is owed. Remember 'She's my carer. She cares so I don't have to.' ? HA. WHATEVER, DOCTOR. 'Do you think I care for you so little…'
Also notice how rejecting the warrior role is what helps solve the problem and saves the day. He passes that role to Danny (with whom it sits far more comfortably), and the dead soldier gets the big hero theme and the big speech. I have lots of thoughts about this, but haven't really got them into shape yet. I LOVED the way he decided on 'idiot' as his epithet, and is making a conscious effort to return to the roots of who he is, and I'm glad he's rejecting all the false dichotomies he's set up for himself (good man/bad man, etc) because they're unhelpful. I hope he is now a little happier in himself. BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one. He likes to give the orders. He likes to be in charge. He gets antsy when his authority is questioned, or people try to give him orders. And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way. And since this episode, as you point out, is all about dark reflections in dark water, let's look quickly at the negative side: as Davros pointed out way back when, his companions tend to become his soldiers, his weapons. He doesn't need an army because he has 'them', his companions, his few elite soldiers. Sometimes their main purpose is to be the happy soldier, and get the actual fighting done when the Doctor won't (thinking of Jack, here, and occasionally of River, and Vastra). The Doctor is right to reject the role of a 'warrior', is right to reject any such restrictive label for himself, I think, because it should always be intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism. BUT. I'm concerned that the Doctor will label himself an idiot, passing through, helping out, and still not recognise that vein of privilege that allows him to do just that.
The Doctor does not need a dark mirror, he has long since moved past the need for it. Missy was brought back for Clara. Not surprisingly, this was confusing for Missy. The story changed without her knowledge, and although she was, plot-wise, constantly one step ahead (as always), she didn't realise that she was on a different track to the rest of them. And she was going to go off a cliff… This was amazing. All your three-way-mirror stuff was amazing. And I love the story analogy you have going on. It puts me in mind of one of those choose-your-own-adventure books - Missy has sent Clara to direct the Doctor, tell him which which page numbers to go to to reach the ending she desires…only to find out they've gone and checked out a whole different book, and are on a different adventure.
More thoughts possibly later. There was a lot going on here :-)
(Oh, and I'm so glad you enjoyed the vid :-) I'm so pleased at how well it fits with your post, and delighted by the simultaneous posting!)
BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one.
And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way
- So much YES. “I’ve got them. Always them.” An unfortunate side-effect of which is that when the Doctor does need an army, even if he may not want one, they do have to die for him. I wish I could love this line without also hearing Clara from “Kill the Moon” saying “Honestly, do you have music playing in your head when you say rubbish like that?”
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
Hee! Thank you so much! We had a lot of fun with that bit - with that whole section, actually. The 'how have they influenced each other's life choices' section. Glad you liked!
As for the meta thing - omg I had completely forgotten that quote about music playing in his head. (Definitely a strong contender for 'most meta line to ever meta') Yes. It's not that I think he's wrong to proclaim himself just 'an idiot' who wants to help - far from it, I think that kind of humility is wonderful - I just think it's kind of hypocritical. Because he IS a 2000-and-something-year-old Time Lord, he does have this unique perspective on time/history/the universe which does give him kind of a good basis to be the person giving the orders...but it's the way he explicitly rejects being given ACTUAL power ('I'm not a president!' 'Stop saluting' etc) whilst still expecting people to listen to him and obey his every order. Obviously he shouldn't go all Time Lord Victorious again because that was terrible and wrong, but there must be a middle ground between 'the laws of time are MINE!!11!1' and I'm just an idiot with a box (but follow my every order anyway') Hmmmm.
BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one. He likes to give the orders. He likes to be in charge. He gets antsy when his authority is questioned, or people try to give him orders. He's from an officer class. Oldest and mightiest in the universe. He fought on Trenzalore for a long long time (also all of River's arc etc etc - the whole thing about the Silence), and Twelve is a very harsh reaction against this, but as you say, it's not that easy to let go. He can't just reject that side, he needs to embrace it more. (Eleven was more upfront/accepting of this, funnily enough. But then he was a Pond.)
It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way. And since this episode, as you point out, is all about dark reflections in dark water, let's look quickly at the negative side: as Davros pointed out way back when, his companions tend to become his soldiers, his weapons. He doesn't need an army because he has 'them', his companions, his few elite soldiers. Oh, nice. ("PE - catch!")
BUT. I'm concerned that the Doctor will label himself an idiot, passing through, helping out, and still not recognise that vein of privilege that allows him to do just that. Am very much looking forward to S9 now.
This was amazing. All your three-way-mirror stuff was amazing. ♥
And I love the story analogy you have going on. It puts me in mind of one of those choose-your-own-adventure books - Missy has sent Clara to direct the Doctor, tell him which which page numbers to go to to reach the ending she desires…only to find out they've gone and checked out a whole different book, and are on a different adventure. Ha! That's excellent. Especially because Missy thinks she's changing the story - she doesn't want the army for herself, like he presumes.
(Oh, and I'm so glad you enjoyed the vid :-) I'm so pleased at how well it fits with your post, and delighted by the simultaneous posting!) It was IMPOSSIBLY perfect.
It makes me think that I really ought to have seen Danny's ending coming much sooner than I did…they both even end up inside giant computers. Oh man, they do! And didn't we say from very early on in the Nethersphere thing that it seemed like it should be a continuation of the Library/Great Intelligence computer thing?
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to... I almost feel like we need to reverse the polarity? I mean like flipping a filter. Because it's not like Missy co-opted some of the symbols or something; she co-opted allllllll of them: there's evil water and evil clouds and an evil world axis and evil eggs and evil flowers. We were going along and you could see the pattern/cycle forming, and at the moment when it should have all come together, a switch was flipped and you could see the whole thing in negative. So the original is still there, does that make sense?
LOTS of people are theorising that Clara is pregnant…which, on the one hand I would be a little concerned about because it would give the Moffat-haters more fuel for their stupid fire ("All his women end up pregnant / he thinks all women want is to have babies" blah blah blah) but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's I almost feel like it makes it more likely *headdesk* Moffat has a talent for doing what he shouldn't. But, ok, how do you explain Orson Pink? 1) He's not actually related to Clara, it's just that Clara is so inter-connected that she was able to get there (Unlikely, I'd say. I wouldn't bet against people being related.) 2) Clara is pregnant now . . . I feel like all the good, rational objections I have for why this shouldn't be done I can't defend on the basis of what happened in season six. 3) Danny is coming back somehow. I think this is my top guess? On the one hand it feels like maybe this should be a story about Clara having to accept things she can't change and about the inevitability of death. But on the other hand, you've got a solid basis for a story there about Danny descending into the underworld and having to face his demons (in the form of the kid he killed), and thus earning his return. I think maybe you can have both stories? Because we've firmly established that *Clara* could not do anything to bring Danny back. And if Danny comes back having saved the kid, then you've got a basis for actual character development for him. Moreover, I have no idea how Missy expected her plan to work if she didn't have a hand in Danny's death. If it wasn't just a random car accident, then they can totally bring him back.
And didn't we say from very early on in the Nethersphere thing that it seemed like it should be a continuation of the Library/Great Intelligence computer thing? YES, YES WE DID. Which makes me feel even more stupid... :-P I kind of predicted the 'overcoming his programming' part - in my meta I wrote about him potentially going on a journey 'from unintentional-killer to saviour', just like River, but kind of forgot about River's ultimate ending...oops.
So the original is still there, does that make sense? It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that.
I almost feel like it makes it more likely *headdesk* Moffat has a talent for doing what he shouldn't. Mmmm. You have a very good point. And I'm so conflicted about it, almost entirely because they've already DONE a pregnancy storyline in S6. My objections have absolutely nothing to do with Clara and her storyline and the Watsonian understanding of everything (because from that angle it makes so much SENSE for her to be pregnant, imo). It's literally the Doyalist fact that there's already been a pregnancy storyline in Moffat's run that would make me uneasy. If that hadn't happened, I would ABSOLUTELY be rooting for Clara to be pregnant! Because it would fit so well with her storyline on a literal and a meta/symbolic level and because it would be a really nice way for her to stop travelling with the Doctor for a POSITIVE reason. As opposed to 'I'm trapped in another universe' / 'I literally can't take being with you and feeling like second best any more' / 'I've had all my memories of you ripped out' / 'I'm trapped in the past and can't see you without tearing the world apart' / 'I'm dead and stuck in a library computer'. 'I'm pregnant and I want to live life to the full on Earth and look after my child, as I've always loved children' is a great reason to stop travelling, for a while. "Come back when my kid is a bit older and we'll go off on an adventure together'. It would be great. BUT the knowledge that it would then be 2/2 Moffat full-time companions who've had pregnancy stories makes me uncomfortable.
Re. Orson Pink, there is, of course, also option 4 - he's from a timeline that no longer exists. That is also possible....
YES, YES WE DID. Which makes me feel even more stupid... :-P I kind of predicted the 'overcoming his programming' part - in my meta I wrote about him potentially going on a journey 'from unintentional-killer to saviour', just like River, but kind of forgot about River's ultimate ending...oops. There's just so much *stuff* anymore. My brain can hardly move under it. And I am looking forward to reading your meta (got it open in a tab). Thanks for pointing it out, because I totally missed it.
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma.
It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that. Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family?
It's literally the Doyalist fact that there's already been a pregnancy storyline in Moffat's run that would make me uneasy. I hear you. And it wasn't exactly well-handled the first time around. The positive spin on this is that Moffat *does* repeat himself, deliberately. It's how he writes, in all these iterative passes. If he went back and did it again, I'd take it as an understanding that we would be refining and building from the first pass.
'I'm pregnant and I want to live life to the full on Earth and look after my child, as I've always loved children' is a great reason to stop travelling, for a while. "Come back when my kid is a bit older and we'll go off on an adventure together'. It would be great. *nods* Though I feel like Clara is destined for a 'soft' send-off in any case. They've established over and over that she *can* leave.
Re. Orson Pink, there is, of course, also option 4 - he's from a timeline that no longer exists. That is also possible.... Also true, in which case I am 100% on board for the trippy, multi-timeline storytelling arc. Bring. It. On.
I am looking forward to reading your meta (got it open in a tab). Ahaha, it might not be quite what you're used to...this was literally me brain-dumping during my lunchbreak at work one day, because I couldn't think about anything else until I'd written everything Doctor Who out of my head...it's part meta, part theorising, part headcanoning, part...general rambling. Enjoy! :-P
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma. Ooooh, another v good point. Which child in particular did you mean for River? There's her children inside CAL, but there's also Amy, who she ends up looking out for in a weird timey-wimey way...
Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family? YES PLZ.
Moffat *does* repeat himself, deliberately. It's how he writes, in all these iterative passes. If he went back and did it again, I'd take it as an understanding that we would be refining and building from the first pass. <3 to you and Moffat!
So, how slow can I be in replying to comments? This slow, apparently. (December... /o\)
they both even end up inside giant computers. I can't believe I didn't make that connection until you pointed it out!
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to... LOL. But where next? Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong.
but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's. She's been surrounded by all that egg imagery since Asylum (the episode which had that whole discussion of Amy's infertility) and she's been consistently associated with children throughout her run. Do you have any thoughts on the likelihood of this? I'm torn. If Danny doesn't come back, then her being pregnant now would be the only way for the timelines to stay put. Going on what knowledge we have. I'm sort of loath to speculate, although I have another Clara theory that I will post today, so...
there are the 'happily ever after' kind, and there's the other kind where everybody learns a tragic lesson about the harshness of life and probably ends up in pain and/or dead. (Think of the original Little Mermaid, for example.) I ADORE original Little Mermaid. And yes, so much darker. Have you seen Buffy? I got *thisclose* to bringing up 'Forever', which is v. similar in nature.
Obviously, DW is ultimately a hopeful, optimistic, family show (supposedly…) so I REALLY hope that nothing terrible ultimately happens to Clara. I'm pretty sure it won't. But if Amy Pond got the Happily Ever After kind of fairytale, Clara has had the other kind… If I'm right about my theory, well...
Nothing really to say here other than <3333 She really is owed. Remember 'She's my carer. She cares so I don't have to.' ? HA. WHATEVER, DOCTOR. 'Do you think I care for you so little…' And the contrast between his searching for words in Into the Dalek, and his brusque correction in Death in Heaven ("She's my friend!"). He's come far.
I can't believe I didn't make that connection until you pointed it out! My favourite thing about fandom is how collaborative it can be :-) *I* can't believe I didn't realise Danny would end up inside a giant computer as soon as I started noticing the parallels…
Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong. And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it.
I have another Clara theory that I will post today, so… ARGH SO EXCITED. AND INTRIGUED. I'll be out this evening, but will inevitably come to ooh and aaah and flail tomorrow. I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could just have gone. That happens all the time in DW.
I got *thisclose* to bringing up 'Forever', which is v. similar in nature Oooh! Yes I have! You're absolutely right. And, of course, it's also a bit like the beginning of 'Villains' in S6. Actually I've been thinking that Clara reminds me a lot of Willow in some ways, and even a little of Chuck from Pushing Daisies. I clearly have a *thing* for seemingly sweet, adorable, petite women whose bubbly personality masks a bossy control freak, with a desperate need to bring their loved ones back from the dead at any cost. Huh.
He's come far. I'm so proud. I think your comment about his searching for words is important - it's not that he *actually* cares more now than he did at the start (I think), it's that he's discovered how to express it better.
My favourite thing about fandom is how collaborative it can be :-) *I* can't believe I didn't realise Danny would end up inside a giant computer as soon as I started noticing the parallels… To be fair, there are SO MANY things going on now...
And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it. Mmmm yes. Bossy control freak in charge of the most powerful nation the universe has ever seen.
I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could just have gone. That happens all the time in DW. I honestly have no idea. Unless they bring Danny back. That also happens all the time. Danny could be Rory the Second. ;)
Oooh! Yes I have! You're absolutely right. We re-watched Death in Heaven last night (Miss M hadn't seen it yet), and when Danny removes his mask she almost recoiled. 'Why would you show that?' Because he is dead, and it is wrong:
DOC: It's a tricky spell, girl. I can't say for sure your mother will come back exactly like she was. (shots of Dawn and Spike listening) Sometimes these ... things ... get a little off. DAWN: But she'll still be my mother. (frowns) Won't she? DOC: More or less.
And, of course, it's also a bit like the beginning of 'Villains' in S6. Ooooh yes.
I clearly have a *thing* for seemingly sweet, adorable, petite women whose bubbly personality masks a bossy control freak, with a desperate need to bring their loved ones back from the dead at any cost. Huh. It's a good type.
I'm so proud. I think your comment about his searching for words is important - it's not that he *actually* cares more now than he did at the start (I think), it's that he's discovered how to express it better. And he doesn't hesitate. At the beginning of the season he's still very hesitant as to whether she will actually stay. They've been through a lot since.
Because if Clara is a Doctor mirror, then Danny is her River.
I'm *so* glad you talked about this - I touched on it vv briefly in my Soldiers in S8 'meta' (if you can call it that - it was more like 4000 words of brain-dumping) but you've dissected it much more thoroughly here. It makes me think that I really ought to have seen Danny's ending coming much sooner than I did…they both even end up inside giant computers.
Because we've been on a cycle of symbolism. We started out with the water and world trees, and we moved through all the death symbolism, and that progressed into eggs and flowers and birds, and it's like just at the moment when everything should have burst into blossom . . . it all turned to rot.
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
Danny was Clara’s future, her ‘blossoming’ - they were going to marry, have children, carry on life. But he dies - and therefore the symbolism follows, which leads to death across the whole Earth.
LOTS of people are theorising that Clara is pregnant…which, on the one hand I would be a little concerned about because it would give the Moffat-haters more fuel for their stupid fire ("All his women end up pregnant / he thinks all women want is to have babies" blah blah blah) but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's. She's been surrounded by all that egg imagery since Asylum (the episode which had that whole discussion of Amy's infertility) and she's been consistently associated with children throughout her run. Do you have any thoughts on the likelihood of this?
And when Clara sees her wishes brought to life (the dead Danny in the cybersuit), she recoils in horror, and chooses to instead help him die as he should.
As they say - 'be careful what you wish for'. People often describe Moffat Who as a 'fairytale', but it strikes me that there are different kinds of fairytales - there are the 'happily ever after' kind, and there's the other kind where everybody learns a tragic lesson about the harshness of life and probably ends up in pain and/or dead. (Think of the original Little Mermaid, for example.) Obviously, DW is ultimately a hopeful, optimistic, family show (supposedly…) so I REALLY hope that nothing terrible ultimately happens to Clara. I'm pretty sure it won't. But if Amy Pond got the Happily Ever After kind of fairytale, Clara has had the other kind…
He will be Clara’s friend, and help. And that is all he needs to do. (Plus he is paying back a debt - remember how Victorian!Clara helped the Doctor out of his grief/depression after he lost his Ponds.
Nothing really to say here other than <3333 She really is owed. Remember 'She's my carer. She cares so I don't have to.' ? HA. WHATEVER, DOCTOR. 'Do you think I care for you so little…'
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I have lots of thoughts about this, but haven't really got them into shape yet. I LOVED the way he decided on 'idiot' as his epithet, and is making a conscious effort to return to the roots of who he is, and I'm glad he's rejecting all the false dichotomies he's set up for himself (good man/bad man, etc) because they're unhelpful. I hope he is now a little happier in himself. BUT…no matter how much he might not WANT to be 'an officer', he really kind of is one. He likes to give the orders. He likes to be in charge. He gets antsy when his authority is questioned, or people try to give him orders. And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way. And since this episode, as you point out, is all about dark reflections in dark water, let's look quickly at the negative side: as Davros pointed out way back when, his companions tend to become his soldiers, his weapons. He doesn't need an army because he has 'them', his companions, his few elite soldiers. Sometimes their main purpose is to be the happy soldier, and get the actual fighting done when the Doctor won't (thinking of Jack, here, and occasionally of River, and Vastra). The Doctor is right to reject the role of a 'warrior', is right to reject any such restrictive label for himself, I think, because it should always be intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism. BUT. I'm concerned that the Doctor will label himself an idiot, passing through, helping out, and still not recognise that vein of privilege that allows him to do just that.
The Doctor does not need a dark mirror, he has long since moved past the need for it. Missy was brought back for Clara. Not surprisingly, this was confusing for Missy. The story changed without her knowledge, and although she was, plot-wise, constantly one step ahead (as always), she didn't realise that she was on a different track to the rest of them. And she was going to go off a cliff…
This was amazing. All your three-way-mirror stuff was amazing. And I love the story analogy you have going on. It puts me in mind of one of those choose-your-own-adventure books - Missy has sent Clara to direct the Doctor, tell him which which page numbers to go to to reach the ending she desires…only to find out they've gone and checked out a whole different book, and are on a different adventure.
More thoughts possibly later. There was a lot going on here :-)
(Oh, and I'm so glad you enjoyed the vid :-) I'm so pleased at how well it fits with your post, and delighted by the simultaneous posting!)
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And I'm worried that he's still not recognising that side of himself…he then carries on with "I don't need an army. I never have, because I've got them. Always them." It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way
- So much YES. “I’ve got them. Always them.” An unfortunate side-effect of which is that when the Doctor does need an army, even if he may not want one, they do have to die for him. I wish I could love this line without also hearing Clara from “Kill the Moon” saying “Honestly, do you have music playing in your head when you say rubbish like that?”
The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
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The bit I liked most about the vid was the quick change from Delgado’s red-lined coat to Simm’s to Capaldi’s. Talk about a long game...
Hee! Thank you so much! We had a lot of fun with that bit - with that whole section, actually. The 'how have they influenced each other's life choices' section. Glad you liked!
As for the meta thing - omg I had completely forgotten that quote about music playing in his head. (Definitely a strong contender for 'most meta line to ever meta') Yes. It's not that I think he's wrong to proclaim himself just 'an idiot' who wants to help - far from it, I think that kind of humility is wonderful - I just think it's kind of hypocritical. Because he IS a 2000-and-something-year-old Time Lord, he does have this unique perspective on time/history/the universe which does give him kind of a good basis to be the person giving the orders...but it's the way he explicitly rejects being given ACTUAL power ('I'm not a president!' 'Stop saluting' etc) whilst still expecting people to listen to him and obey his every order. Obviously he shouldn't go all Time Lord Victorious again because that was terrible and wrong, but there must be a middle ground between 'the laws of time are MINE!!11!1' and I'm just an idiot with a box (but follow my every order anyway') Hmmmm.
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He's from an officer class. Oldest and mightiest in the universe. He fought on Trenzalore for a long long time (also all of River's arc etc etc - the whole thing about the Silence), and Twelve is a very harsh reaction against this, but as you say, it's not that easy to let go. He can't just reject that side, he needs to embrace it more. (Eleven was more upfront/accepting of this, funnily enough. But then he was a Pond.)
It's a beautiful, moving sentiment that gets to the heart of Doctor Who - it's always been about the companions, really - but could also be read in a negative way. And since this episode, as you point out, is all about dark reflections in dark water, let's look quickly at the negative side: as Davros pointed out way back when, his companions tend to become his soldiers, his weapons. He doesn't need an army because he has 'them', his companions, his few elite soldiers.
Oh, nice. ("PE - catch!")
BUT. I'm concerned that the Doctor will label himself an idiot, passing through, helping out, and still not recognise that vein of privilege that allows him to do just that.
Am very much looking forward to S9 now.
This was amazing. All your three-way-mirror stuff was amazing.
♥
And I love the story analogy you have going on. It puts me in mind of one of those choose-your-own-adventure books - Missy has sent Clara to direct the Doctor, tell him which which page numbers to go to to reach the ending she desires…only to find out they've gone and checked out a whole different book, and are on a different adventure.
Ha! That's excellent. Especially because Missy thinks she's changing the story - she doesn't want the army for herself, like he presumes.
(Oh, and I'm so glad you enjoyed the vid :-) I'm so pleased at how well it fits with your post, and delighted by the simultaneous posting!)
It was IMPOSSIBLY perfect.
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Oh man, they do! And didn't we say from very early on in the Nethersphere thing that it seemed like it should be a continuation of the Library/Great Intelligence computer thing?
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
I almost feel like we need to reverse the polarity? I mean like flipping a filter. Because it's not like Missy co-opted some of the symbols or something; she co-opted allllllll of them: there's evil water and evil clouds and an evil world axis and evil eggs and evil flowers. We were going along and you could see the pattern/cycle forming, and at the moment when it should have all come together, a switch was flipped and you could see the whole thing in negative. So the original is still there, does that make sense?
LOTS of people are theorising that Clara is pregnant…which, on the one hand I would be a little concerned about because it would give the Moffat-haters more fuel for their stupid fire ("All his women end up pregnant / he thinks all women want is to have babies" blah blah blah) but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's
I almost feel like it makes it more likely *headdesk* Moffat has a talent for doing what he shouldn't. But, ok, how do you explain Orson Pink? 1) He's not actually related to Clara, it's just that Clara is so inter-connected that she was able to get there (Unlikely, I'd say. I wouldn't bet against people being related.) 2) Clara is pregnant now . . . I feel like all the good, rational objections I have for why this shouldn't be done I can't defend on the basis of what happened in season six. 3) Danny is coming back somehow. I think this is my top guess? On the one hand it feels like maybe this should be a story about Clara having to accept things she can't change and about the inevitability of death. But on the other hand, you've got a solid basis for a story there about Danny descending into the underworld and having to face his demons (in the form of the kid he killed), and thus earning his return. I think maybe you can have both stories? Because we've firmly established that *Clara* could not do anything to bring Danny back. And if Danny comes back having saved the kid, then you've got a basis for actual character development for him. Moreover, I have no idea how Missy expected her plan to work if she didn't have a hand in Danny's death. If it wasn't just a random car accident, then they can totally bring him back.
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YES, YES WE DID. Which makes me feel even more stupid... :-P I kind of predicted the 'overcoming his programming' part - in my meta I wrote about him potentially going on a journey 'from unintentional-killer to saviour', just like River, but kind of forgot about River's ultimate ending...oops.
So the original is still there, does that make sense?
It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that.
I almost feel like it makes it more likely *headdesk* Moffat has a talent for doing what he shouldn't.
Mmmm. You have a very good point. And I'm so conflicted about it, almost entirely because they've already DONE a pregnancy storyline in S6. My objections have absolutely nothing to do with Clara and her storyline and the Watsonian understanding of everything (because from that angle it makes so much SENSE for her to be pregnant, imo). It's literally the Doyalist fact that there's already been a pregnancy storyline in Moffat's run that would make me uneasy. If that hadn't happened, I would ABSOLUTELY be rooting for Clara to be pregnant! Because it would fit so well with her storyline on a literal and a meta/symbolic level and because it would be a really nice way for her to stop travelling with the Doctor for a POSITIVE reason. As opposed to 'I'm trapped in another universe' / 'I literally can't take being with you and feeling like second best any more' / 'I've had all my memories of you ripped out' / 'I'm trapped in the past and can't see you without tearing the world apart' / 'I'm dead and stuck in a library computer'. 'I'm pregnant and I want to live life to the full on Earth and look after my child, as I've always loved children' is a great reason to stop travelling, for a while. "Come back when my kid is a bit older and we'll go off on an adventure together'. It would be great. BUT the knowledge that it would then be 2/2 Moffat full-time companions who've had pregnancy stories makes me uncomfortable.
Re. Orson Pink, there is, of course, also option 4 - he's from a timeline that no longer exists. That is also possible....
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There's just so much *stuff* anymore. My brain can hardly move under it. And I am looking forward to reading your meta (got it open in a tab). Thanks for pointing it out, because I totally missed it.
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma.
It does make sense, I'm just wondering how they will flip that switch back. I guess Christmas is always a good time for that.
Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family?
It's literally the Doyalist fact that there's already been a pregnancy storyline in Moffat's run that would make me uneasy.
I hear you. And it wasn't exactly well-handled the first time around. The positive spin on this is that Moffat *does* repeat himself, deliberately. It's how he writes, in all these iterative passes. If he went back and did it again, I'd take it as an understanding that we would be refining and building from the first pass.
'I'm pregnant and I want to live life to the full on Earth and look after my child, as I've always loved children' is a great reason to stop travelling, for a while. "Come back when my kid is a bit older and we'll go off on an adventure together'. It would be great.
*nods* Though I feel like Clara is destined for a 'soft' send-off in any case. They've established over and over that she *can* leave.
Re. Orson Pink, there is, of course, also option 4 - he's from a timeline that no longer exists. That is also possible....
Also true, in which case I am 100% on board for the trippy, multi-timeline storytelling arc. Bring. It. On.
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Ahaha, it might not be quite what you're used to...this was literally me brain-dumping during my lunchbreak at work one day, because I couldn't think about anything else until I'd written everything Doctor Who out of my head...it's part meta, part theorising, part headcanoning, part...general rambling. Enjoy! :-P
River and Danny also both end up looking out for a child in a way that addresses past trauma.
Ooooh, another v good point. Which child in particular did you mean for River? There's her children inside CAL, but there's also Amy, who she ends up looking out for in a weird timey-wimey way...
Hugs and sparkles and people claiming each other as family?
YES PLZ.
Moffat *does* repeat himself, deliberately. It's how he writes, in all these iterative passes. If he went back and did it again, I'd take it as an understanding that we would be refining and building from the first pass.
<3 to you and Moffat!
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they both even end up inside giant computers.
I can't believe I didn't make that connection until you pointed it out!
Mmmmmmmm. Wonderful. So where do you think it will go next? Back to the beginning I guess. Circle of life...no hang on that's The Lion King…but the point still stands! :-) Which leads to...
LOL. But where next? Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong.
but also it WOULD fit much more organically within Clara's storyline than it ever did in Amy's. She's been surrounded by all that egg imagery since Asylum (the episode which had that whole discussion of Amy's infertility) and she's been consistently associated with children throughout her run. Do you have any thoughts on the likelihood of this?
I'm torn. If Danny doesn't come back, then her being pregnant now would be the only way for the timelines to stay put. Going on what knowledge we have. I'm sort of loath to speculate, although I have another Clara theory that I will post today, so...
there are the 'happily ever after' kind, and there's the other kind where everybody learns a tragic lesson about the harshness of life and probably ends up in pain and/or dead. (Think of the original Little Mermaid, for example.)
I ADORE original Little Mermaid. And yes, so much darker. Have you seen Buffy? I got *thisclose* to bringing up 'Forever', which is v. similar in nature.
Obviously, DW is ultimately a hopeful, optimistic, family show (supposedly…) so I REALLY hope that nothing terrible ultimately happens to Clara. I'm pretty sure it won't. But if Amy Pond got the Happily Ever After kind of fairytale, Clara has had the other kind…
If I'm right about my theory, well...
Nothing really to say here other than <3333 She really is owed. Remember 'She's my carer. She cares so I don't have to.' ? HA. WHATEVER, DOCTOR. 'Do you think I care for you so little…'
And the contrast between his searching for words in Into the Dalek, and his brusque correction in Death in Heaven ("She's my friend!"). He's come far.
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My favourite thing about fandom is how collaborative it can be :-) *I* can't believe I didn't realise Danny would end up inside a giant computer as soon as I started noticing the parallels…
Restoration, surely. Of some description or other. Santa himself said that the story had gone wrong.
And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it.
I have another Clara theory that I will post today, so…
ARGH SO EXCITED. AND INTRIGUED. I'll be out this evening, but will inevitably come to ooh and aaah and flail tomorrow. I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could just have gone. That happens all the time in DW.
I got *thisclose* to bringing up 'Forever', which is v. similar in nature
Oooh! Yes I have! You're absolutely right. And, of course, it's also a bit like the beginning of 'Villains' in S6. Actually I've been thinking that Clara reminds me a lot of Willow in some ways, and even a little of Chuck from Pushing Daisies. I clearly have a *thing* for seemingly sweet, adorable, petite women whose bubbly personality masks a bossy control freak, with a desperate need to bring their loved ones back from the dead at any cost. Huh.
He's come far.
I'm so proud. I think your comment about his searching for words is important - it's not that he *actually* cares more now than he did at the start (I think), it's that he's discovered how to express it better.
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To be fair, there are SO MANY things going on now...
And this is where I reeeeeeeally want Clara to end up on Gallifrey, as per my original desire from way back when. If Danny doesn't come back, obviously. The restoration of Gallifrey, and of, er, appropriate use of power of Gallifrey (that's perhaps less a restructuring and more a total overhaul of the political system, but whatever) and Clara to be there to see it.
Mmmm yes. Bossy control freak in charge of the most powerful nation the universe has ever seen.
ARGH SO EXCITED. AND INTRIGUED.
Here you go! :)
I'm less convinced than I was that she's pregnant…I guess Orson could always be descended from a relative of Danny's…or that timeline could just have gone. That happens all the time in DW.
I honestly have no idea. Unless they bring Danny back. That also happens all the time. Danny could be Rory the Second. ;)
Oooh! Yes I have! You're absolutely right.
We re-watched Death in Heaven last night (Miss M hadn't seen it yet), and when Danny removes his mask she almost recoiled. 'Why would you show that?' Because he is dead, and it is wrong:
DOC: It's a tricky spell, girl. I can't say for sure your mother will come back exactly like she was. (shots of Dawn and Spike listening) Sometimes these ... things ... get a little off.
DAWN: But she'll still be my mother. (frowns) Won't she?
DOC: More or less.
And, of course, it's also a bit like the beginning of 'Villains' in S6.
Ooooh yes.
I clearly have a *thing* for seemingly sweet, adorable, petite women whose bubbly personality masks a bossy control freak, with a desperate need to bring their loved ones back from the dead at any cost. Huh.
It's a good type.
I'm so proud. I think your comment about his searching for words is important - it's not that he *actually* cares more now than he did at the start (I think), it's that he's discovered how to express it better.
And he doesn't hesitate. At the beginning of the season he's still very hesitant as to whether she will actually stay. They've been through a lot since.
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