Nippon no Arashi - Ninomiya (Part 2 of 2)
And here's the second half of Nino's trip, where he goes out to visit Studio Ghibli~!
Ninomiya Kazunari x Miyazaki Hayao
At Miyazaki Hayao-san's studio Nibariki
A few days after their wonderful time at Nintendo, Ninomiya Kazunari and the interview team met up again at Koganei City in Tokyo, to visit Studio Ghibli, which has produced numerous hit anime movies, like "Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind," "My Neighbor Totoro," "Princess Mononoke," and "Ponyo on the Cliff."
Under the blue sky that rivaled the one during their day in Kyoto, the team first met up in Koganei Park to go over the day's plan and compose themselves. Both Studio Ghibli and Miyazaki Hayao-san's (69 years-old) own agency, "Nibariki," were located close to here. Within Tokyo, Koganei City in particular has a lot of greenery. Walking under the pin and sawtooth oaks and red pine trees in the park, they felt more calm thanks to all the rich green plants around them.
Now, it was time for their appointment. First they went to Nibariki, which also serves as Miyazaki Hayao-san's studio. There, they were met by Miyazaki-san, who was wearing an apron. Miyazaki-san created Studio Ghibli's company daycare, called, "The House of the 3 Bears," right next to Nibariki, and he is also the landlord of it. Nonetheless, just with Miyazaki-san standing there, the group felt like they were instantly pulled into the Ghibli world.
The studio they were shown into had large windows through which the sunlight was streaming in. There was a fireplace, grand piano, a very tall and thin antique clock, and even, when they glanced up, a bridge that looked like a cat could walk across. It was a space full of the playfulness that one can feel in Director Miyazaki's Ghibli animations. They sat at a large table right in the middle of the room, and began their leisurely discussion.
Ninomiya: Have you been drawing since you were a child?
Miyazaki: Yes, I've always been drawing, but all children doodle, so it was like that for me too.
Ninomiya: But you weren't looking at something and drawing it?
Miyazaki: I've never drawn something to imitate something.
Ninomiya: Eh~!
Miyazaki: I'm not really sure why. I do think it's because my mother told me, "You shouldn't copy someone else" (lol). I can’t draw like Astro Boy or Oba Q, I never have. The only thing that was drilled into me was that I shouldn't copy others. But I've seen them. So in my heart I was still influenced by them.
Ninomiya: By people like Tezuka Osamu.
Miyazaki: Yes, I was influenced by them a lot, but there’s no point in drawing things exactly like them, because then I'd have to compete with them.
Ninomiya: You're announcing new works at a pretty constant pace.
Miyazaki: Not really though.
Ninomiya: Really?
Miyazaki: I used to be able to make them faster before, but, well now, I've personally started needing to take a lot of time to do it. The content of the works have gradually become more and more complex, so I can’t make them in as short a time as I used to. In the beginning, I could make a full-length movie in 4 and a half months. Then that became 6 months, one year, 2 years (lol). Now it's getting to the point where if you leave me be, I'll never get to finishing it.
Ninomiya: But while you're making a movie you're completely focused on that one movie, aren’t you?
Miyazaki: Yes, of course. I work on it with the feelings that as long as the movie turns out decent, I don’t mind losing an arm or a leg over it. I feel differently the instant it is finished though (lol).
Ninomiya: When you finish, you think that you can’t do it anymore?
Miyazaki: It takes me 6 months at a minimum to get back to normal.
Ninomiya: Eh--.
Miyazaki: But, actually an original work is a very risky thing to do. I've made quite a few works that I thought were not that good, but it's like the audiences saved it (lol). That's how I've gotten by. I often say this, but every time, I say this is my last chance. Even I never thought it would continue this long.
Ninomiya: But, you still want to keep going, don’t you?
Miyazaki: No, it'd be ok with me if I didn’t keep going, but now I have other people's livelihoods depending on it (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: You don’t have to worry about me now, but we really have come to a difficult time. Not in terms of the issues of our studio, but for Japanese animation as a whole. Many places now rely on places like China to help with their work. So I think, Japanese animation probably came to a turning point quite a while ago already. It's not that we're approaching a turning point, but that, when we look back, we see we already turned it a long time ago (lol).
Ninomiya: Eh, but isn’t it a huge boom right now!? They have words like Japanimation and everything.
Miyazaki: No no, that's already outdated. The reality is quite a bit different I think. Especially ever since the financial crisis, there are more and more people everywhere unable to find work. And not many people go to the movie theaters anymore.
Ninomiya: Is that so. The situation is completely different.
Miyazaki: Yes. There are still some people saying this and that about Japanese animation, but they are quite far off the mark from reality. There are fans of Japanese animation and manga in the West and Asia, but... to put it roughly, they are the otakus (TN: Japanese word for the socially awkward geeks/nerds that tend to be anime superfans. See Arashi's performance of Bazuri Night from the untitled concert for a stereotypical example of them, lol) of their societies. But, from their perspectives, they say that Japan is better for at least having the word/concept "otaku." That in their countries such a word doesn’t even exist (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol). But even so, Ghibli continues to make movies. Are those ones that you want to see, Miyazaki-san? Or ones that have something you want to show others?
Miyazaki: It’s not as simple as all that. At any rate, they have to be made. It's not as if I can take a bit if a break now, but, even if I think deeply like this.... about what I want to make now, it's no good. It's not something that will come if I think about it, or debate about it, so, well, it's more like I'm lowering a fishing hook into the hollows of my mind and waiting to see if something will bite (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: It’s like that. I have to force it out. Once I finish one, it's like I'm completely empty, really. Then I become poor. I'll stand in front of my bookcase, looking for something to read, and just keep coming back to stand there. There's no end of ideas for things that I'd like to make. But, they're nothing but things that I can confidently say audiences won’t come to see. And as I get older, I find myself wanting to make only those ones that I'm confident audiences won’t go see.
Ninomiya: I see. So that means that if you didn’t have to think about how well they'd do, there are a lot of movies that you want to make.
Miyazaki: Well, but the actual making of it is also quite a hassle. You have to just sit at a desk and draw away. There are 150 people just at Studio Ghibli alone, but we can’t have that fun, "what are you doing this month?" atmosphere when we're making something. Because we have to keep it up after all. So it’s tiring. I think that's a problem any movie or production company has. If we were allowed to just make what we wanted to make, I think we would've already closed down 20 years ago (lol).
Ninomiya: I see.
Miyazaki: But, the film's that are worth making will always be there. The possibility is always there. Because if you don’t make it, it forever will never be. And it’s certainly true that those things don’t come by so easily. So there’s nothing for it but to believe that there will be a piece you will be glad to have made, and to search for it, no matter what you make.
Ninomiya: Is the best one the one that you think you're glad you made, after all?
Miyazaki: Well that's a complicated issue, since I have so many that I couldn’t look people in the eye over (lol). So much so that I wanted to tell people that they shouldn't go see it. When you work on something for almost 2 years, all you remember are the parts that didn’t go as well as you wanted, so it's quite tough. They say that over time, the film will become better or mellow out, but that's not true at all (lol). Things that weren't good stay that way.
Ninomiya: From our perspective, we can’t imagine that that's the case.
Miyazaki: Also, and I think this is a fairly common story, but there are now a different kind of people becoming animators too. People that have grown up watching tv and movies. For them, their examples of things came from videos. I once had a guy, when I told him to draw fire, he went to watch a video of an animated fire. When I told him to go look at real fire, he said there isn’t one. So then I told him to come over here and look in the stove, and then he stared at the stove for 4 hours (lol). He'd never seen a naked flame like that before, and that's just one example. There are many more similar stories I have involving all kinds of different things.
Ninomiya: I see.
Miyazaki: To sum it up, right now, information and the videos themselves have great momentum and can be enjoyed with detail, but in the end, it's not the same as encountering the real thing. So, the things that are produced by those people are essentially copies of copies. So of course they would run thin and vague. Now we put in the colors using computers, but in the past we used to paint them in with brushes. But we aren't able to use brushes anymore. In the past, after about 3 months with it, one could use the brush pretty well. Some took less or more time, and some were better at it than others, but everyone could paint. Now there are people who cannot master the brush even after a year with it.
Ninomiya: Eh~~.
Miyazaki: In regards to this, I'm a bit puzzled too. It's not as if those people are slacking at it at all, they're doing their absolute best at it (lol). But the more they do it the worse it gets. It's because they didn't do things that they needed to start while they were children. That's why after hitting 20, no matter how hard they try it's no good. It may seem cruel, but it’s no good. And those no-good kids are becoming parents. And the no-good parents are raising more and more no-good children. I think in regard to working with ones hands, Japan as a whole has really gone backwards. Japan was once supported by that manual labor though. Human resources is Japan’s only resource after all. This is not good. Becoming all mellowed out and content with it (lol).
Ninomiya: It’s not really something to laugh about is it (lol).
Miyazaki: Even if you ask me what we should do, I have no idea either. Of course, if you have the chance, let them play in the mud or swim in the nearby lake, and while they're swimming, they can drink the water or pee in it, but all of that isn’t nearly enough. If we really want to do something about the country, before worrying about the way the economy is set up, we really need to put our energy, knowledge, and money into trying to figure out how to raise the children. From the time they are newborns. We can’t leave it up to the mothers. No matter how hard the mothers try, in today’s world it's impossible to raise a child by oneself. After all, in the past, the child raising was done by the town and family, so to expect one person to handle it all, they'll just have a mental breakdown.
Ninomiya: I wonder what it is. Have things just become too convenient?
Miyazaki: Hmmm~, it's a bit boring. I'm not the kind of person that wants to look fashionable, so even if the shoes I wear wore down, I admire the lifestyle where I'd just take them to the shoemakers in town and have them fix them while scolding me for wearing them too long, and then while we're at it, I'd have them make me another pair. I don’t want to go out and just buy another pair, since I don’t want to wear shoes made by someone who knows where. I really think I just can’t live that kind of lifestyle. But, in actuality, my wife just goes out and buys them somewhere. The only thing made in Japan that I'm wearing right now is this apron that the daughter of a friend of mine made (lol). These pants were made in China (lol). All we're doing is consuming. I don't think there are many countries out there made up of only consumers.
Ninomiya: I see. Even the world of animation is being made in China.
Miyazaki: It’s even worse with animation. Sometimes whole projects are sent to China.
Ninomiya: Sending all of it is really something.
Miyazaki: That's how the big things have been made, and then all of a sudden you notice you hadn’t made any money. Suddenly, now the numbers of anime are decreasing. Though I think it should decrease even more (lol).
Ninomiya: Is that so (lol).
Miyazaki: Because, once a year, going to see one short anime movie in the theater and then going home excited, I think that's probably the best balance for children. I say that, but Ghibli is making things constantly. Having the chances to hear music, or see live theater, those out of the ordinary excitements, and then to let them rustle around and play in their neighborhoods in their regular daily lives, that's the best. I think many people wonder how we can make a society like that. But, on the other hand, we don’t have to worry about dangerous things like being held up at gunpoint while we're just out walking. Rivers that were once quite dirty are becoming clean little by little. I think this country is still not bad. It's quite peaceful after all. I don’t really feel like I want to go to another country. It's just in regards to the children. I think we're guilty of the same thing if we decide not to do business for the sake of the children (lol). That's the crux of it. It's a mistake to think that because a need/demand is there it needs to be met.
Ninomiya: That's true. Nowadays that sort of thing gets overlooked.
Miyazaki: There are some uncertainties/risks of our business and work. There are, but our daily lifestyles themselves are done relatively healthily. I prohibited working all night too. Because it doesn’t help at all. It’s just bad for your body.
Ninomiya: So is the end time at night set?
Miyazaki: No, there are some people that stay past midnight, but even if there are some of the staff that do that, they don’t get any extra points for it. I want them to properly come in the morning, and then leave whenever is appropriate. I've had plenty of people in the past who said that their minds worked better at night, but that was just their habit, and I think if convenience stores and family restaurants started closing at 11pm, the lifestyles of the younger folks would change quite a lot. And if the vending machines shut off their lights at 11. Though that might be a problem for me too (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: But I don't know if all that is a good thing. It might only bring a feeling of shortage, but not actually be a good thing. There are so many problems of all types, and even regarding having so many people concentrated in the capital area, what should be done. The growth of Japan's population has already stopped. How we should wisely reduce a capital city that has expanded to capacity.
Ninomiya: In that sense, it does connect to the way of thinking in “The Secret World of Arrietty.” But this time you aren’t doing it yourself, but leaving the directing to Yonebayashi-san.
Miyazaki: That’s because I can’t make it, anymore. Like I mentioned earlier, to continue working in my way that I always have is physically very strenuous. I have to think that. Even the smaller projects I’m doing now, I’m going this slow on. But despite that, I want the contents to be more involved than before, so everything gets complicated. When I see such a troublesome storyboard come to me, it’s my own doing.
Ninomiya: (lol). But, leaving it up to other people is also difficult too, isn’t it?
Miyazaki: That’s why, for this “Arrietty,” I won’t put a hand in it, or even sneak a peek. Because it’d be bad if I saw it and then started muttering this and that about it.
Ninomiya: Eh~, then to put it in extremes, do you mean that until it’s finished you won’t see much of it at all?
Miyazaki: I’m the one that’s seen the least of it. Amongst all of the people in that studio. Isn’t that gallant/manly?
Ninomiya: It is gallant/manly, but don’t you feel anxious about it?
Miyazaki: No, since even if I were anxious it wouldn’t help anything. Because, it’s not like I can go in there and say ‘I’ll do it for you since you’re no good.’ All I can say is do it properly to the very end.
Ninomiya: That’s just how much responsibility there is on them. It’s theirs.
Miyazaki: Yes, that’s right.
Ninomiya: That’s great, easy to understand.
Miyazaki: It’s a bother, looking over people’s work. You have to follow that person’s entire train of thought to do it. And then if I say that one part should be a little different, then it becomes true. So, there’s nothing for it but to let them mess up, struggle through it, and overcome it on their own. If I don’t do that then the new generation won’t be raised right. So, the easiest way to do that is just to not look over anything. Even if I’m working next to them, I just tell them, “Looks tough” (lol).
Ninomiya: I see, so then, are you looking forward to when it’s finished?
Miyazaki: I’m a person that never really feels like watching movies, so I’m not looking forward to it or anything. I wouldn’t like it if it didn’t go well, but then I’d be a bit vexed if it did go well too. So either way I wouldn’t like it (lol).
Ninomiya: You look at it with those sorts of feelings.
Miyazaki: In our work, no matter how under control you think you have it, you’re not entirely removed from things like envy and such. If they do it well and it goes well, then I think ‘Damn!’ or wonder what it is I’ve been doing up until now (lol). Those sorts of feelings are definitely going to follow you around, so you have to accept it and be as disinterested as you can. However, it’s rude to watch it while thinking that it’s going to be bad no matter what. Because, he decided to gamble on it and thought that there was something worth showing. Because I’m having him do it after I stopped him when he was running around doing this and that. So I can’t then just pull his pants down from behind him after all that. But, I think it should be fine since I can see (Director Yonebayashi’s) face/look is changing. He looks more now like he’s shouldering responsibility. I think he’s got a great look now.
Ninomiya: That’s amazing.
Miyazaki: The director is the only one that’s looking good. That look comes from asking society what the true meaning of responsibility is. Thinking that you yourself have to do something. The next steps are out of the question until you overcome that part, including the difficult things. So in regards to that, I think it’s having quite an effect on the movie. However, that’s totally separate from whether or not audiences will come to see it. The project might not have been the right one, and I don’t have anything to say about that.
Ninomiya: “My Neighbor Totoro” didn’t do very well in theaters, did it?
Miyazaki: Not at all.
Ninomiya: Though it’s hard to believe it now.
Miyazaki: When you’re doing something new, it always comes with risks attached. So even though I thought audiences wouldn’t really come to see it, by making what I wanted to, it opened up the path for me. I met people who allowed me to do it, and well, I had good luck. I said it earlier, that the audiences didn’t abandon it and came to see it, and I was relieved (lol). I’ve just repeated that and have gotten to this point. And all we could do was believe we were the ones on the right path, and keep going like we were. So then we quit doing CG and said, “We’re doing it all with pencils and brushes!”
Ninomiya: That decision is incredible. To stop doing CG.
Miyazaki: Actually, CG erodes away at the painter’s brain. I think drawing is a way to express your own feelings, and you can’t stop doing that work. There are now more people that use computers to draw backgrounds than by hand. I’ve heard is about 90% of them.
Ninomiya: 90%!
Miyazaki: A while back, we had a young man from Korea come, and he said that in Korea there is now not even one animation that has the backgrounds drawn by hand anymore. He came to Japan because he wanted to train, and I asked him to show me his drawings, but when I looked, I saw that it was totally done on a computer (lol). Even if you use a brush, a computer is a computer. (The skill) was already eroded away. So, with things this overtaken by computers, I thought it would become a rare value to continue being particular about using brushes and pencils. Like there must be at least one geta specialty store (TN: geta are traditional Japanese sandals) that survives sometimes. If you line up the things that are being sold everywhere, and start comparing which is cheaper or more expensive, soon you’ll have no idea what’s what, so I figure it’s better to just stick with doing only the geta. But actually, when you turn what you’ve drawn with pencil and brushes into film, it requires really amazing technique to do so. Technique that only people who get it will appreciate.
Ninomiya: I see~. Lastly, for you, what kind of person is the producer, Suzuki Toshio-san?
Miyazaki: I can’t say it all in one word. There are times I get mad at him, and other times I want him to pull it together, but he’s a person you need when making a movie.
Ninomiya: Do you work together with him the whole time?
Miyazaki: The trick is to not work together the whole time. While we’re working on a project, we wind up spending many more hours together than we do with our wives even. And then, at first I see nothing but good things about him, but soon I wind up starting to see only the bad things. Then, I just can’t stand him anymore, and he can’t stand me either. I don’t even want to see his face. So it’s better to separate after that. Sometimes I hadn’t seen him in a year and a half.
Ninomiya: Eh!
Miyazaki: By doing that, the next time we need to team up for something but in a different way, it’s possible to do so. We can’t pair up in the same way as before though. Relationships with people can be completely used up. When I’ve used them up, in order to maintain them long term, I try not to see them as much as I can. By doing that, I can start thinking over time that they’re good after all when I compare them to a random stranger (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: Well, but in regards to the relationship with the producer, we really do see each other a lot, so it’s best to keep a bit of tension/nervousness there. We don’t get super close or all buddy-buddy. The situation with Ghibli that I talked about earlier, Producer Suzuki understands that as well, and I’m sure he’s thinking that he won’t be able to run away from it through this. Because I’m constantly thinking it (lol). Sometimes he gets a sad look on his face, seeing how many people we have here now (lol).
Ninomiya: That’s really true. The 150 people at Ghibli you mentioned, is that just the animators alone?
Miyazaki: No. Over time, we’ve had to make sections for things like public relations or an international business department. Or a publishing department. Well, the publishing is Suzuki-san’s hobby. I’ve made the daycare/preschool my hobby (lol). We have about 18 kids there. And just at the daycare we have 8 people on staff. But, I’ve really been saved by this daycare being here. Things that I completely failed to notice when I was raising my own kids, I have realized now. Like, is that what it was. Since I had left my own in the daycare a lot. Just by checking in on the daycare every so often, I can see the children learn all kinds of things in their way right in front of me, and I’m gaining a lot from it.
Ninomiya: Do the children come to your studio too sometimes?
Miyazaki: Well, sometimes I do lure them over using jelly beans as bait (lol). But that can’t be helped. Just think of it as the special right of an old man who has one foot in the grave (lol). But I don’t do it that often.
After the discussion that had never slowed, they went outside the studio to be guided by Miyazaki-san. It must have been afternoon nap time, but they stood outside the quiet daycare, and he told them even more stories about the children. He looked more like a principal of a daycare than a director in that moment. Ninomiya thanked him for talking with the group so conscientiously/thoroughly. Next they headed to Studio Ghibli, to meet Producer Suzuki and Director Yonebayashi of “The Secret World of Arrietty.”
Ninomiya Kazunari x Suzuki Toshio x Yonebayashi Hiromasa
Talking about the new director and new movie at Studio Ghibli
Ninomiya thought over Miyazaki-san’s words after their discussion. He thought about how the discussion with Miyazaki-san, which didn’t stop simply at the animation world, but was full of all kinds of ideas, would be made into this book and put out into the world, and what that really means.
Now, next was to talk with Suzuki Toshio-san (61 years-old), Studio Ghibli’s producer, who has continued to work with Miyazaki-san to create Ghibli animes. And Yonebayashi Hiromasa-san (37 years-old), who worked as a director for the first time on Studio Ghibli’s newest movie, “The Secret World of Arrietty.” They talked about the determination/resolve of Director Yonebayashi, being a director for the first time under the large presence of Miyazaki Hayao-san, and the hopes/expectations of Suzuki-san, who was the main person responsible for choosing Yonebayashi-san. They visited Studio Ghibli when they were in the midst of working on “The Secret World of Arrietty.”
Ninomiya: How many Ghibli movies have there been?
Suzuki: I counted earlier and there are 18. Sometimes I forget.
Ninomiya: From which one did you start, director?
Yonebayashi: I joined from “Princess Mononoke.” With “Princess Mononoke,” I started from the animating stage, but then with “Spirited Away,” I started from the painting stages.
Suzuki: Do you know the difference between animating and painting?
Ninomiya: Well painting is painting right. What is involved with the animating?
Yonebayashi: For the animating, there are a number of drawings from the painters that become the main ones, and then pictures are needed in between those to fill in the gaps. Extra drawings are put in between to make the movements more smooth.
Ninomiya: I see. Suzuki-san, why did you decide to become a producer?
Suzuki: I originally worked as a reporter for a magazine. Through an interview, I became acquainted with Miyazaki Hayao, and before I realized it 32 years have gone by (lol). The magazine I was at was serializing the manga for “Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind.”
Ninomiya: That’s amazing. Yonebayashi-san, have you been watching the movies since “Nausicaä” came out?
Yonebayashi: “Nausicaä” came out when I was in 5th grade.
Ninomiya: Suzuki-san, you have such an unpleasant look on your face (lol).
Yonebayashi: It’s a weird feeling to be working in a place that you’ve been watching since you were a child. I started here right around the time they were working on “Princess Mononoke,” and I remember seeing all of these grand/heroic drawings laid out.
Suzuki: Miyazaki Hayao continues to draw out various scenes that he’d like to see in the movie every time he thinks up of them. For that movie he continuously drew pictures for about 2 years. In the first place, I’m the one that said that we should do “Princess Mononoke.” That the skills of the animators trained at Ghibli were starting to improve, so we should do an action movie, which we hadn’t done in a while. Miyazaki Hayao too, was already 60 at the time, so he might retire soon…. Is what I’d thought (lol).
Ninomiya: But he’s still continuing on now, seemingly endlessly (lol).
Suzuki: He won’t stop!
Ninomiya: Did you think that at this point maybe it would be good to reach some sort of compromise, Suzuki-san?
Suzuki: Yes. Because I thought I wouldn’t be able to make things like this except for this project. And regardless of how well it did, we would end grandly/heroically. And at that time, not knowing any of this, he came and started here.
Yonebayashi: When I started here, the movie was already over half done, and everyone was on edge (lol).
Ninomiya: It wasn’t a very welcoming mood (lol).
Suzuki: I was thinking deep inside, “Perhaps I should quit Ghibli soon.”
Yonebayashi: I was told at my welcoming ceremony, “We have no idea when Ghibli will close down.”
Everyone: (lol)!
Yonebayashi: Like, “Please be prepared for it” (lol).
Suzuki: Incidentally, his nickname is Maro.
Ninomiya: Why is it Maro?
Yonebayashi: At the welcoming party for the new employees, my seniors told me, “From today we’ll call you Maro.” They said it was because I looked like a Maro.
Ninomiya: Because you look like it (lol).
Suzuki: No one calls him Yonebayashi or Hiromasa. Everyone calls him Maro. When everyone else is panicked and flustered, he’ll be calmly sitting there. At the end of last year, we had a progress check on “The Secret World of Arrietty,” to welcome the new year. The main people gathered together. And, it was super behind. Since I’m the producer I had to say something, right. At this rate we wouldn’t make it in time for the summer release date. And when I said that, everyone kind of just looked down. In the midst of that, I asked, “Maro, this is extremely tough, what do you think?” And then of course everyone looked over at once, thinking, “What will he say?” But, he didn’t say anything for a while. Everyone was like, “Well, what do you say?” (lol). And then, when he finally opened his mouth, he said, “I wonder if we can do it~.”
Everyone: (lol)!!
Yonebayashi: Since I’m not sure if we’ll be able to do it or not.
Suzuki: But he’s funny at times like that. Everyone just froze.
Yonebayashi: Yeah they did (lol).
Suzuki: There’s a guy called Take-chan, from the arts department, and he was sitting next to Maro and put his hand on his shoulder, and said, “You know…” (lol). But I was relieved when I heard Maro say that.
Ninomiya: Conversely, you mean?
Suzuki: Yes. Like, ah, things will probably work out. I’d be troubled if he was in a panic. But we were unbelievably behind.
Ninomiya: Is that so.
Suzuki: I can say this now, but of all of the movies that Ghibli has done, it was the most. That’s how behind it was (lol).
Ninomiya: Eh~! In the first place, who was the one that decided that Maro-san would be the director for “The Secret World of Arrietty?”
Yonebayashi: Suzuki-san just arbitrarily decided that on his own.
Everyone: (lol)!
Suzuki: “The Secret World of Arrietty” is based on “The Borrowers.” I’d been talking with Miya-san about it for 3 months, saying “what should we do”, and then finally one day we decided we were going to do it. When we made that decision, Miya-san asked me, “Suzuki-san, what should we do about the director?” and I knew that Miyazaki Hayao wasn’t going to do it, and I suddenly on a whim said, “Maro.” So of course I got asked, “Why?” “Well… I think Maro would be good.” “How long have you been thinking about it?” “For the last 2 or 3 years.” That was a lie though (lol).
Everyone: (lol)!!
Suzuki: Of course I knew that he is very good as an animator. But no matter how good of an animator you are, it doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not you’re suitable to be a director. That’s really hit or miss.
Ninomiya: But you thought of him.
Suzuki: His name came to me. That wasn’t a coincidence.
Ninomiya: And did Miyazaki-san agree with that right away?
Suzuki: This is what I imagine. Miyazaki Hayao was probably thinking of making him his right hand man on the next project he did. Because his drawings are really good.
Ninomiya: Ah-, so for Miyazaki-san, he was thinking, “I want to keep Maro on reserve.”
Suzuki: Yes. So I think he really didn’t want to. But then he thought, “Suzuki-san, that’s what you were thinking of.” And, he had to make the decision. He had to say yes or no to it. So while he was saying, “How long have you been thinking about it?” Miya-san was frantically thinking about it. And, he overcame/left his own wishes. All of this in a split second. He overcame it and said, “If that’s the case, then let’s call him over right now.”
Ninomiya: Yes yes.
Suzuki: So we had Maro come over to Miya-san’s studio and all of a sudden Miya-san said, “Maro, here is the original work. ‘The Borrowers,’ this is what we’re doing next. And it’s been decided that you’ll be directing it so please do it well.”
Ninomiya: What did you think when you heard that?
Yonebayashi: I thought, “Eh, this is a joke, right!?”
Suzuki: At that time he was quiet too. Then after a while he said, “But the director needs some sort of thought or opinions to convey, right?” Then both Miya-san’s and my hands went at the same time towards the original book, and we both held it up and said, “The thoughts and opinions are written in here” (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Suzuki: That was also a lie though (lol). But the plan came from Miyazaki Hayao in the first place, right? So he did the preparations for the scenarios and setting and all that. So at that time we had the huge option of having Maro draw the storyboards based off of those scenarios and setting. Whether or not to have Miya-san look over the things that he drew. In animation, once the storyboard is decided on, it’s pretty much set at that point. It just depends on if Miya-san gives the final go-ahead.
Ninomiya: So what did you decide to do?
Yonebayashi: …I decided to not show it to him--.
Ninomiya: Eh-.
Suzuki: We decided to not show him a single thing. So then we went to go tell him that.
Ninomiya: What did Miyazaki-san say to that?
Suzuki: He said, “There’s a man!” (lol).
Everyone: (lol)!
Suzuki: Miya-san said, “Ok!” and was very happy about it.
Ninomiya: Eh-! But there’s a lot of pressure on you then, isn’t there?
Suzuki: You know, he’s the type of person who thinks that if he has the time to feel pressure, then he needs to instead focus on the work that’s in front of him. That’s one of Maro’s traits.
Ninomiya: That’s really amazing.
Suzuki: Yes! I really admire that about him. So during the making of the storyboard, well, as you know it’s his work of a first-time director, right? Normally they put their all over the entire thing. But Maro, he knew that since there was only a year to make it, he had gone through and decided which parts needed to be worked on fully, and which ones could be glossed over a little. I was a little surprised at that. He was the first of all the new directors I’ve seen at Ghibli to do that.
Ninomiya: Eh-! You didn’t want to go at top speed through the whole thing?
Yonebayashi: Because I thought from the beginning that it wouldn’t be able to be done without borrowing strength from other people.
Ninomiya: But I’m sure most first-time directors would feel like they would do it all, and at top speed.
Suzuki: Yes. Most people think they will run everything themselves. Especially if they’re younger. But he was different.
Ninomiya: That’s amazing.
Suzuki: To put it simply, he’s someone with grace/virtue. That never came out beforehand. Though I did think that he was not the kind of person to openly make of show of leading people.
Yonebayashi: I’m the exact opposite. Even when we all travel together I think, “I hope someone else comes up with the itinerary.”
Suzuki: But, occasionally his director-like stubbornness does come out. Like he wouldn’t give up the idea of having it rain even though it is sunny. In that way he is like Miya-san.
Ninomiya: Oh, he’s stubborn. Do you think you’re stubborn?
Yonebayashi: Hmm… I don’t think that I’m particularly stubborn.
Suzuki: That’s usually what stubborn people say (lol). Do you have a movie that you like?
Ninomiya: I really like “Whisper of the Heart.”
Yonebayashi: I also first thought about working at Ghibli after watching “Whisper of the Heart.”
Ninomiya: It’s good right!
Yonebayashi: It’s good.
Suzuki: What do you like about it?
Ninomiya: I think, it has everything that I would have liked my adolescence to be like. Like the landscapes and all, I think that I would have liked to have lived my adolescence in a place like that.
Suzuki: The landscapes of the town are all based on real places. Only, we took out or reduced various things from the real places, like the telephone poles, electric lines, or signs/billboards. One of Miya-san’s ideas was to definitely put in every place at least twice in the movie. Even the streetcorners. And, to show them from a different angle.
Ninomiya: Why is that?
Suzuki: If you show the same spot twice, even if you change the angle, then it leaves an impression with the audience. Then they think, “Oh, that’s that spot,” and it becomes part of their own world. That’s why every place definitely comes out at least twice.
Ninomiya: That makes sense.
Suzuki: Miya-san was even thinking of things like that.
Ninomiya: Why do you like “Whisper of the Heart,” director?
Yonebayashi: First, it was very fresh/new. It had a freshness that I hadn’t seen in a movie before, and I thought that’s where the future was. I mean, the movie before that was “Porco Rosso” after all (lol). So I had wondered why they made this guy’s movies. And then suddenly the next one was a coming of age story.
Ninomiya: It was sudden, wasn’t it? I also had that feeling. So then conversely, how would you like “The Secret World of Arrietty” to be viewed?
Yonebayashi: Just how I felt after watching “Whisper of the Heart,” I’d be happy if the people who watched the movie come away thinking that it’s fresh or full of hope.
Suzuki-san and Yonebayashi-san were both quite congenial during the discussion, despite their being in the midst of working on “The Secret World of Arreitty,” and must have been quite tense in actuality. Ninomiya thanked them, and with his heart full of gratitude, left Studio Ghibli. Then the group returned to the starting point of today’s trip, Koganei Park, and reflected over the special interviews.
“Having a director like Maro-san is great. I’m sure it’s because Suzuki-san and Miyazaki-san are like they are, that they chose someone opposite them like Maro-san. Someone who has something that they don’t, in a way. People like that are necessary. Maro-san’s attitude, of feeling like doing the directing isn’t something all that special, is great too. It’s a good balance. I really liked “Whisper of the Heart.” That’s really a masterpiece~. Ghibli animes are shown repeatedly on tv, and are out on DVD, but it’s really amazing that you can easily watch them multiple times. Miyamoto-san, who made Mario, had also mentioned wanting to make something that can be played with for a long time, and that’s something they have in common. And also, both Ghibli and Nintendo don’t have that arrogance like they’re at the forefront of entertainment. Though of course they take pride in what they do. But at the same time, it doesn’t feel like they’re trying to be modest. They were very natural. And it didn’t feel like a lecture or anything either. I really was given a lot of different things to think about, and I’m happy to have gone.”
With his strong and brave heart as his weapon, Ninomiya went in to talk to the people that represent Japanese entertainment on these trips to Kyoto and Tokyo. Ninomiya was able to take away very important things, not only for himself individually, but also for the group of Arashi. It was also a trip that resulted in the huge challenge of what’s coming ahead. Ninomiya’s trip, which started with the idea to “experience Japan’s entertainment!”, came to an end here, but perhaps the trip for Arashi, having received a new task, is only just beginning.
And there we go! All of the members' trips are done now~! Yay! Next weekend I'll hopefully post the very last part of the book, which is a short crosstalk with all the members, where they tell each other about their trips, and that will be it!
Thanks for coming by~!
Masterpost is here.
Ninomiya Kazunari x Miyazaki Hayao
At Miyazaki Hayao-san's studio Nibariki
A few days after their wonderful time at Nintendo, Ninomiya Kazunari and the interview team met up again at Koganei City in Tokyo, to visit Studio Ghibli, which has produced numerous hit anime movies, like "Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind," "My Neighbor Totoro," "Princess Mononoke," and "Ponyo on the Cliff."
Under the blue sky that rivaled the one during their day in Kyoto, the team first met up in Koganei Park to go over the day's plan and compose themselves. Both Studio Ghibli and Miyazaki Hayao-san's (69 years-old) own agency, "Nibariki," were located close to here. Within Tokyo, Koganei City in particular has a lot of greenery. Walking under the pin and sawtooth oaks and red pine trees in the park, they felt more calm thanks to all the rich green plants around them.
Now, it was time for their appointment. First they went to Nibariki, which also serves as Miyazaki Hayao-san's studio. There, they were met by Miyazaki-san, who was wearing an apron. Miyazaki-san created Studio Ghibli's company daycare, called, "The House of the 3 Bears," right next to Nibariki, and he is also the landlord of it. Nonetheless, just with Miyazaki-san standing there, the group felt like they were instantly pulled into the Ghibli world.
The studio they were shown into had large windows through which the sunlight was streaming in. There was a fireplace, grand piano, a very tall and thin antique clock, and even, when they glanced up, a bridge that looked like a cat could walk across. It was a space full of the playfulness that one can feel in Director Miyazaki's Ghibli animations. They sat at a large table right in the middle of the room, and began their leisurely discussion.
Ninomiya: Have you been drawing since you were a child?
Miyazaki: Yes, I've always been drawing, but all children doodle, so it was like that for me too.
Ninomiya: But you weren't looking at something and drawing it?
Miyazaki: I've never drawn something to imitate something.
Ninomiya: Eh~!
Miyazaki: I'm not really sure why. I do think it's because my mother told me, "You shouldn't copy someone else" (lol). I can’t draw like Astro Boy or Oba Q, I never have. The only thing that was drilled into me was that I shouldn't copy others. But I've seen them. So in my heart I was still influenced by them.
Ninomiya: By people like Tezuka Osamu.
Miyazaki: Yes, I was influenced by them a lot, but there’s no point in drawing things exactly like them, because then I'd have to compete with them.
Ninomiya: You're announcing new works at a pretty constant pace.
Miyazaki: Not really though.
Ninomiya: Really?
Miyazaki: I used to be able to make them faster before, but, well now, I've personally started needing to take a lot of time to do it. The content of the works have gradually become more and more complex, so I can’t make them in as short a time as I used to. In the beginning, I could make a full-length movie in 4 and a half months. Then that became 6 months, one year, 2 years (lol). Now it's getting to the point where if you leave me be, I'll never get to finishing it.
Ninomiya: But while you're making a movie you're completely focused on that one movie, aren’t you?
Miyazaki: Yes, of course. I work on it with the feelings that as long as the movie turns out decent, I don’t mind losing an arm or a leg over it. I feel differently the instant it is finished though (lol).
Ninomiya: When you finish, you think that you can’t do it anymore?
Miyazaki: It takes me 6 months at a minimum to get back to normal.
Ninomiya: Eh--.
Miyazaki: But, actually an original work is a very risky thing to do. I've made quite a few works that I thought were not that good, but it's like the audiences saved it (lol). That's how I've gotten by. I often say this, but every time, I say this is my last chance. Even I never thought it would continue this long.
Ninomiya: But, you still want to keep going, don’t you?
Miyazaki: No, it'd be ok with me if I didn’t keep going, but now I have other people's livelihoods depending on it (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: You don’t have to worry about me now, but we really have come to a difficult time. Not in terms of the issues of our studio, but for Japanese animation as a whole. Many places now rely on places like China to help with their work. So I think, Japanese animation probably came to a turning point quite a while ago already. It's not that we're approaching a turning point, but that, when we look back, we see we already turned it a long time ago (lol).
Ninomiya: Eh, but isn’t it a huge boom right now!? They have words like Japanimation and everything.
Miyazaki: No no, that's already outdated. The reality is quite a bit different I think. Especially ever since the financial crisis, there are more and more people everywhere unable to find work. And not many people go to the movie theaters anymore.
Ninomiya: Is that so. The situation is completely different.
Miyazaki: Yes. There are still some people saying this and that about Japanese animation, but they are quite far off the mark from reality. There are fans of Japanese animation and manga in the West and Asia, but... to put it roughly, they are the otakus (TN: Japanese word for the socially awkward geeks/nerds that tend to be anime superfans. See Arashi's performance of Bazuri Night from the untitled concert for a stereotypical example of them, lol) of their societies. But, from their perspectives, they say that Japan is better for at least having the word/concept "otaku." That in their countries such a word doesn’t even exist (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol). But even so, Ghibli continues to make movies. Are those ones that you want to see, Miyazaki-san? Or ones that have something you want to show others?
Miyazaki: It’s not as simple as all that. At any rate, they have to be made. It's not as if I can take a bit if a break now, but, even if I think deeply like this.... about what I want to make now, it's no good. It's not something that will come if I think about it, or debate about it, so, well, it's more like I'm lowering a fishing hook into the hollows of my mind and waiting to see if something will bite (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: It’s like that. I have to force it out. Once I finish one, it's like I'm completely empty, really. Then I become poor. I'll stand in front of my bookcase, looking for something to read, and just keep coming back to stand there. There's no end of ideas for things that I'd like to make. But, they're nothing but things that I can confidently say audiences won’t come to see. And as I get older, I find myself wanting to make only those ones that I'm confident audiences won’t go see.
Ninomiya: I see. So that means that if you didn’t have to think about how well they'd do, there are a lot of movies that you want to make.
Miyazaki: Well, but the actual making of it is also quite a hassle. You have to just sit at a desk and draw away. There are 150 people just at Studio Ghibli alone, but we can’t have that fun, "what are you doing this month?" atmosphere when we're making something. Because we have to keep it up after all. So it’s tiring. I think that's a problem any movie or production company has. If we were allowed to just make what we wanted to make, I think we would've already closed down 20 years ago (lol).
Ninomiya: I see.
Miyazaki: But, the film's that are worth making will always be there. The possibility is always there. Because if you don’t make it, it forever will never be. And it’s certainly true that those things don’t come by so easily. So there’s nothing for it but to believe that there will be a piece you will be glad to have made, and to search for it, no matter what you make.
Ninomiya: Is the best one the one that you think you're glad you made, after all?
Miyazaki: Well that's a complicated issue, since I have so many that I couldn’t look people in the eye over (lol). So much so that I wanted to tell people that they shouldn't go see it. When you work on something for almost 2 years, all you remember are the parts that didn’t go as well as you wanted, so it's quite tough. They say that over time, the film will become better or mellow out, but that's not true at all (lol). Things that weren't good stay that way.
Ninomiya: From our perspective, we can’t imagine that that's the case.
Miyazaki: Also, and I think this is a fairly common story, but there are now a different kind of people becoming animators too. People that have grown up watching tv and movies. For them, their examples of things came from videos. I once had a guy, when I told him to draw fire, he went to watch a video of an animated fire. When I told him to go look at real fire, he said there isn’t one. So then I told him to come over here and look in the stove, and then he stared at the stove for 4 hours (lol). He'd never seen a naked flame like that before, and that's just one example. There are many more similar stories I have involving all kinds of different things.
Ninomiya: I see.
Miyazaki: To sum it up, right now, information and the videos themselves have great momentum and can be enjoyed with detail, but in the end, it's not the same as encountering the real thing. So, the things that are produced by those people are essentially copies of copies. So of course they would run thin and vague. Now we put in the colors using computers, but in the past we used to paint them in with brushes. But we aren't able to use brushes anymore. In the past, after about 3 months with it, one could use the brush pretty well. Some took less or more time, and some were better at it than others, but everyone could paint. Now there are people who cannot master the brush even after a year with it.
Ninomiya: Eh~~.
Miyazaki: In regards to this, I'm a bit puzzled too. It's not as if those people are slacking at it at all, they're doing their absolute best at it (lol). But the more they do it the worse it gets. It's because they didn't do things that they needed to start while they were children. That's why after hitting 20, no matter how hard they try it's no good. It may seem cruel, but it’s no good. And those no-good kids are becoming parents. And the no-good parents are raising more and more no-good children. I think in regard to working with ones hands, Japan as a whole has really gone backwards. Japan was once supported by that manual labor though. Human resources is Japan’s only resource after all. This is not good. Becoming all mellowed out and content with it (lol).
Ninomiya: It’s not really something to laugh about is it (lol).
Miyazaki: Even if you ask me what we should do, I have no idea either. Of course, if you have the chance, let them play in the mud or swim in the nearby lake, and while they're swimming, they can drink the water or pee in it, but all of that isn’t nearly enough. If we really want to do something about the country, before worrying about the way the economy is set up, we really need to put our energy, knowledge, and money into trying to figure out how to raise the children. From the time they are newborns. We can’t leave it up to the mothers. No matter how hard the mothers try, in today’s world it's impossible to raise a child by oneself. After all, in the past, the child raising was done by the town and family, so to expect one person to handle it all, they'll just have a mental breakdown.
Ninomiya: I wonder what it is. Have things just become too convenient?
Miyazaki: Hmmm~, it's a bit boring. I'm not the kind of person that wants to look fashionable, so even if the shoes I wear wore down, I admire the lifestyle where I'd just take them to the shoemakers in town and have them fix them while scolding me for wearing them too long, and then while we're at it, I'd have them make me another pair. I don’t want to go out and just buy another pair, since I don’t want to wear shoes made by someone who knows where. I really think I just can’t live that kind of lifestyle. But, in actuality, my wife just goes out and buys them somewhere. The only thing made in Japan that I'm wearing right now is this apron that the daughter of a friend of mine made (lol). These pants were made in China (lol). All we're doing is consuming. I don't think there are many countries out there made up of only consumers.
Ninomiya: I see. Even the world of animation is being made in China.
Miyazaki: It’s even worse with animation. Sometimes whole projects are sent to China.
Ninomiya: Sending all of it is really something.
Miyazaki: That's how the big things have been made, and then all of a sudden you notice you hadn’t made any money. Suddenly, now the numbers of anime are decreasing. Though I think it should decrease even more (lol).
Ninomiya: Is that so (lol).
Miyazaki: Because, once a year, going to see one short anime movie in the theater and then going home excited, I think that's probably the best balance for children. I say that, but Ghibli is making things constantly. Having the chances to hear music, or see live theater, those out of the ordinary excitements, and then to let them rustle around and play in their neighborhoods in their regular daily lives, that's the best. I think many people wonder how we can make a society like that. But, on the other hand, we don’t have to worry about dangerous things like being held up at gunpoint while we're just out walking. Rivers that were once quite dirty are becoming clean little by little. I think this country is still not bad. It's quite peaceful after all. I don’t really feel like I want to go to another country. It's just in regards to the children. I think we're guilty of the same thing if we decide not to do business for the sake of the children (lol). That's the crux of it. It's a mistake to think that because a need/demand is there it needs to be met.
Ninomiya: That's true. Nowadays that sort of thing gets overlooked.
Miyazaki: There are some uncertainties/risks of our business and work. There are, but our daily lifestyles themselves are done relatively healthily. I prohibited working all night too. Because it doesn’t help at all. It’s just bad for your body.
Ninomiya: So is the end time at night set?
Miyazaki: No, there are some people that stay past midnight, but even if there are some of the staff that do that, they don’t get any extra points for it. I want them to properly come in the morning, and then leave whenever is appropriate. I've had plenty of people in the past who said that their minds worked better at night, but that was just their habit, and I think if convenience stores and family restaurants started closing at 11pm, the lifestyles of the younger folks would change quite a lot. And if the vending machines shut off their lights at 11. Though that might be a problem for me too (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: But I don't know if all that is a good thing. It might only bring a feeling of shortage, but not actually be a good thing. There are so many problems of all types, and even regarding having so many people concentrated in the capital area, what should be done. The growth of Japan's population has already stopped. How we should wisely reduce a capital city that has expanded to capacity.
Ninomiya: In that sense, it does connect to the way of thinking in “The Secret World of Arrietty.” But this time you aren’t doing it yourself, but leaving the directing to Yonebayashi-san.
Miyazaki: That’s because I can’t make it, anymore. Like I mentioned earlier, to continue working in my way that I always have is physically very strenuous. I have to think that. Even the smaller projects I’m doing now, I’m going this slow on. But despite that, I want the contents to be more involved than before, so everything gets complicated. When I see such a troublesome storyboard come to me, it’s my own doing.
Ninomiya: (lol). But, leaving it up to other people is also difficult too, isn’t it?
Miyazaki: That’s why, for this “Arrietty,” I won’t put a hand in it, or even sneak a peek. Because it’d be bad if I saw it and then started muttering this and that about it.
Ninomiya: Eh~, then to put it in extremes, do you mean that until it’s finished you won’t see much of it at all?
Miyazaki: I’m the one that’s seen the least of it. Amongst all of the people in that studio. Isn’t that gallant/manly?
Ninomiya: It is gallant/manly, but don’t you feel anxious about it?
Miyazaki: No, since even if I were anxious it wouldn’t help anything. Because, it’s not like I can go in there and say ‘I’ll do it for you since you’re no good.’ All I can say is do it properly to the very end.
Ninomiya: That’s just how much responsibility there is on them. It’s theirs.
Miyazaki: Yes, that’s right.
Ninomiya: That’s great, easy to understand.
Miyazaki: It’s a bother, looking over people’s work. You have to follow that person’s entire train of thought to do it. And then if I say that one part should be a little different, then it becomes true. So, there’s nothing for it but to let them mess up, struggle through it, and overcome it on their own. If I don’t do that then the new generation won’t be raised right. So, the easiest way to do that is just to not look over anything. Even if I’m working next to them, I just tell them, “Looks tough” (lol).
Ninomiya: I see, so then, are you looking forward to when it’s finished?
Miyazaki: I’m a person that never really feels like watching movies, so I’m not looking forward to it or anything. I wouldn’t like it if it didn’t go well, but then I’d be a bit vexed if it did go well too. So either way I wouldn’t like it (lol).
Ninomiya: You look at it with those sorts of feelings.
Miyazaki: In our work, no matter how under control you think you have it, you’re not entirely removed from things like envy and such. If they do it well and it goes well, then I think ‘Damn!’ or wonder what it is I’ve been doing up until now (lol). Those sorts of feelings are definitely going to follow you around, so you have to accept it and be as disinterested as you can. However, it’s rude to watch it while thinking that it’s going to be bad no matter what. Because, he decided to gamble on it and thought that there was something worth showing. Because I’m having him do it after I stopped him when he was running around doing this and that. So I can’t then just pull his pants down from behind him after all that. But, I think it should be fine since I can see (Director Yonebayashi’s) face/look is changing. He looks more now like he’s shouldering responsibility. I think he’s got a great look now.
Ninomiya: That’s amazing.
Miyazaki: The director is the only one that’s looking good. That look comes from asking society what the true meaning of responsibility is. Thinking that you yourself have to do something. The next steps are out of the question until you overcome that part, including the difficult things. So in regards to that, I think it’s having quite an effect on the movie. However, that’s totally separate from whether or not audiences will come to see it. The project might not have been the right one, and I don’t have anything to say about that.
Ninomiya: “My Neighbor Totoro” didn’t do very well in theaters, did it?
Miyazaki: Not at all.
Ninomiya: Though it’s hard to believe it now.
Miyazaki: When you’re doing something new, it always comes with risks attached. So even though I thought audiences wouldn’t really come to see it, by making what I wanted to, it opened up the path for me. I met people who allowed me to do it, and well, I had good luck. I said it earlier, that the audiences didn’t abandon it and came to see it, and I was relieved (lol). I’ve just repeated that and have gotten to this point. And all we could do was believe we were the ones on the right path, and keep going like we were. So then we quit doing CG and said, “We’re doing it all with pencils and brushes!”
Ninomiya: That decision is incredible. To stop doing CG.
Miyazaki: Actually, CG erodes away at the painter’s brain. I think drawing is a way to express your own feelings, and you can’t stop doing that work. There are now more people that use computers to draw backgrounds than by hand. I’ve heard is about 90% of them.
Ninomiya: 90%!
Miyazaki: A while back, we had a young man from Korea come, and he said that in Korea there is now not even one animation that has the backgrounds drawn by hand anymore. He came to Japan because he wanted to train, and I asked him to show me his drawings, but when I looked, I saw that it was totally done on a computer (lol). Even if you use a brush, a computer is a computer. (The skill) was already eroded away. So, with things this overtaken by computers, I thought it would become a rare value to continue being particular about using brushes and pencils. Like there must be at least one geta specialty store (TN: geta are traditional Japanese sandals) that survives sometimes. If you line up the things that are being sold everywhere, and start comparing which is cheaper or more expensive, soon you’ll have no idea what’s what, so I figure it’s better to just stick with doing only the geta. But actually, when you turn what you’ve drawn with pencil and brushes into film, it requires really amazing technique to do so. Technique that only people who get it will appreciate.
Ninomiya: I see~. Lastly, for you, what kind of person is the producer, Suzuki Toshio-san?
Miyazaki: I can’t say it all in one word. There are times I get mad at him, and other times I want him to pull it together, but he’s a person you need when making a movie.
Ninomiya: Do you work together with him the whole time?
Miyazaki: The trick is to not work together the whole time. While we’re working on a project, we wind up spending many more hours together than we do with our wives even. And then, at first I see nothing but good things about him, but soon I wind up starting to see only the bad things. Then, I just can’t stand him anymore, and he can’t stand me either. I don’t even want to see his face. So it’s better to separate after that. Sometimes I hadn’t seen him in a year and a half.
Ninomiya: Eh!
Miyazaki: By doing that, the next time we need to team up for something but in a different way, it’s possible to do so. We can’t pair up in the same way as before though. Relationships with people can be completely used up. When I’ve used them up, in order to maintain them long term, I try not to see them as much as I can. By doing that, I can start thinking over time that they’re good after all when I compare them to a random stranger (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Miyazaki: Well, but in regards to the relationship with the producer, we really do see each other a lot, so it’s best to keep a bit of tension/nervousness there. We don’t get super close or all buddy-buddy. The situation with Ghibli that I talked about earlier, Producer Suzuki understands that as well, and I’m sure he’s thinking that he won’t be able to run away from it through this. Because I’m constantly thinking it (lol). Sometimes he gets a sad look on his face, seeing how many people we have here now (lol).
Ninomiya: That’s really true. The 150 people at Ghibli you mentioned, is that just the animators alone?
Miyazaki: No. Over time, we’ve had to make sections for things like public relations or an international business department. Or a publishing department. Well, the publishing is Suzuki-san’s hobby. I’ve made the daycare/preschool my hobby (lol). We have about 18 kids there. And just at the daycare we have 8 people on staff. But, I’ve really been saved by this daycare being here. Things that I completely failed to notice when I was raising my own kids, I have realized now. Like, is that what it was. Since I had left my own in the daycare a lot. Just by checking in on the daycare every so often, I can see the children learn all kinds of things in their way right in front of me, and I’m gaining a lot from it.
Ninomiya: Do the children come to your studio too sometimes?
Miyazaki: Well, sometimes I do lure them over using jelly beans as bait (lol). But that can’t be helped. Just think of it as the special right of an old man who has one foot in the grave (lol). But I don’t do it that often.
After the discussion that had never slowed, they went outside the studio to be guided by Miyazaki-san. It must have been afternoon nap time, but they stood outside the quiet daycare, and he told them even more stories about the children. He looked more like a principal of a daycare than a director in that moment. Ninomiya thanked him for talking with the group so conscientiously/thoroughly. Next they headed to Studio Ghibli, to meet Producer Suzuki and Director Yonebayashi of “The Secret World of Arrietty.”
Ninomiya Kazunari x Suzuki Toshio x Yonebayashi Hiromasa
Talking about the new director and new movie at Studio Ghibli
Ninomiya thought over Miyazaki-san’s words after their discussion. He thought about how the discussion with Miyazaki-san, which didn’t stop simply at the animation world, but was full of all kinds of ideas, would be made into this book and put out into the world, and what that really means.
Now, next was to talk with Suzuki Toshio-san (61 years-old), Studio Ghibli’s producer, who has continued to work with Miyazaki-san to create Ghibli animes. And Yonebayashi Hiromasa-san (37 years-old), who worked as a director for the first time on Studio Ghibli’s newest movie, “The Secret World of Arrietty.” They talked about the determination/resolve of Director Yonebayashi, being a director for the first time under the large presence of Miyazaki Hayao-san, and the hopes/expectations of Suzuki-san, who was the main person responsible for choosing Yonebayashi-san. They visited Studio Ghibli when they were in the midst of working on “The Secret World of Arrietty.”
Ninomiya: How many Ghibli movies have there been?
Suzuki: I counted earlier and there are 18. Sometimes I forget.
Ninomiya: From which one did you start, director?
Yonebayashi: I joined from “Princess Mononoke.” With “Princess Mononoke,” I started from the animating stage, but then with “Spirited Away,” I started from the painting stages.
Suzuki: Do you know the difference between animating and painting?
Ninomiya: Well painting is painting right. What is involved with the animating?
Yonebayashi: For the animating, there are a number of drawings from the painters that become the main ones, and then pictures are needed in between those to fill in the gaps. Extra drawings are put in between to make the movements more smooth.
Ninomiya: I see. Suzuki-san, why did you decide to become a producer?
Suzuki: I originally worked as a reporter for a magazine. Through an interview, I became acquainted with Miyazaki Hayao, and before I realized it 32 years have gone by (lol). The magazine I was at was serializing the manga for “Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind.”
Ninomiya: That’s amazing. Yonebayashi-san, have you been watching the movies since “Nausicaä” came out?
Yonebayashi: “Nausicaä” came out when I was in 5th grade.
Ninomiya: Suzuki-san, you have such an unpleasant look on your face (lol).
Yonebayashi: It’s a weird feeling to be working in a place that you’ve been watching since you were a child. I started here right around the time they were working on “Princess Mononoke,” and I remember seeing all of these grand/heroic drawings laid out.
Suzuki: Miyazaki Hayao continues to draw out various scenes that he’d like to see in the movie every time he thinks up of them. For that movie he continuously drew pictures for about 2 years. In the first place, I’m the one that said that we should do “Princess Mononoke.” That the skills of the animators trained at Ghibli were starting to improve, so we should do an action movie, which we hadn’t done in a while. Miyazaki Hayao too, was already 60 at the time, so he might retire soon…. Is what I’d thought (lol).
Ninomiya: But he’s still continuing on now, seemingly endlessly (lol).
Suzuki: He won’t stop!
Ninomiya: Did you think that at this point maybe it would be good to reach some sort of compromise, Suzuki-san?
Suzuki: Yes. Because I thought I wouldn’t be able to make things like this except for this project. And regardless of how well it did, we would end grandly/heroically. And at that time, not knowing any of this, he came and started here.
Yonebayashi: When I started here, the movie was already over half done, and everyone was on edge (lol).
Ninomiya: It wasn’t a very welcoming mood (lol).
Suzuki: I was thinking deep inside, “Perhaps I should quit Ghibli soon.”
Yonebayashi: I was told at my welcoming ceremony, “We have no idea when Ghibli will close down.”
Everyone: (lol)!
Yonebayashi: Like, “Please be prepared for it” (lol).
Suzuki: Incidentally, his nickname is Maro.
Ninomiya: Why is it Maro?
Yonebayashi: At the welcoming party for the new employees, my seniors told me, “From today we’ll call you Maro.” They said it was because I looked like a Maro.
Ninomiya: Because you look like it (lol).
Suzuki: No one calls him Yonebayashi or Hiromasa. Everyone calls him Maro. When everyone else is panicked and flustered, he’ll be calmly sitting there. At the end of last year, we had a progress check on “The Secret World of Arrietty,” to welcome the new year. The main people gathered together. And, it was super behind. Since I’m the producer I had to say something, right. At this rate we wouldn’t make it in time for the summer release date. And when I said that, everyone kind of just looked down. In the midst of that, I asked, “Maro, this is extremely tough, what do you think?” And then of course everyone looked over at once, thinking, “What will he say?” But, he didn’t say anything for a while. Everyone was like, “Well, what do you say?” (lol). And then, when he finally opened his mouth, he said, “I wonder if we can do it~.”
Everyone: (lol)!!
Yonebayashi: Since I’m not sure if we’ll be able to do it or not.
Suzuki: But he’s funny at times like that. Everyone just froze.
Yonebayashi: Yeah they did (lol).
Suzuki: There’s a guy called Take-chan, from the arts department, and he was sitting next to Maro and put his hand on his shoulder, and said, “You know…” (lol). But I was relieved when I heard Maro say that.
Ninomiya: Conversely, you mean?
Suzuki: Yes. Like, ah, things will probably work out. I’d be troubled if he was in a panic. But we were unbelievably behind.
Ninomiya: Is that so.
Suzuki: I can say this now, but of all of the movies that Ghibli has done, it was the most. That’s how behind it was (lol).
Ninomiya: Eh~! In the first place, who was the one that decided that Maro-san would be the director for “The Secret World of Arrietty?”
Yonebayashi: Suzuki-san just arbitrarily decided that on his own.
Everyone: (lol)!
Suzuki: “The Secret World of Arrietty” is based on “The Borrowers.” I’d been talking with Miya-san about it for 3 months, saying “what should we do”, and then finally one day we decided we were going to do it. When we made that decision, Miya-san asked me, “Suzuki-san, what should we do about the director?” and I knew that Miyazaki Hayao wasn’t going to do it, and I suddenly on a whim said, “Maro.” So of course I got asked, “Why?” “Well… I think Maro would be good.” “How long have you been thinking about it?” “For the last 2 or 3 years.” That was a lie though (lol).
Everyone: (lol)!!
Suzuki: Of course I knew that he is very good as an animator. But no matter how good of an animator you are, it doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not you’re suitable to be a director. That’s really hit or miss.
Ninomiya: But you thought of him.
Suzuki: His name came to me. That wasn’t a coincidence.
Ninomiya: And did Miyazaki-san agree with that right away?
Suzuki: This is what I imagine. Miyazaki Hayao was probably thinking of making him his right hand man on the next project he did. Because his drawings are really good.
Ninomiya: Ah-, so for Miyazaki-san, he was thinking, “I want to keep Maro on reserve.”
Suzuki: Yes. So I think he really didn’t want to. But then he thought, “Suzuki-san, that’s what you were thinking of.” And, he had to make the decision. He had to say yes or no to it. So while he was saying, “How long have you been thinking about it?” Miya-san was frantically thinking about it. And, he overcame/left his own wishes. All of this in a split second. He overcame it and said, “If that’s the case, then let’s call him over right now.”
Ninomiya: Yes yes.
Suzuki: So we had Maro come over to Miya-san’s studio and all of a sudden Miya-san said, “Maro, here is the original work. ‘The Borrowers,’ this is what we’re doing next. And it’s been decided that you’ll be directing it so please do it well.”
Ninomiya: What did you think when you heard that?
Yonebayashi: I thought, “Eh, this is a joke, right!?”
Suzuki: At that time he was quiet too. Then after a while he said, “But the director needs some sort of thought or opinions to convey, right?” Then both Miya-san’s and my hands went at the same time towards the original book, and we both held it up and said, “The thoughts and opinions are written in here” (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Suzuki: That was also a lie though (lol). But the plan came from Miyazaki Hayao in the first place, right? So he did the preparations for the scenarios and setting and all that. So at that time we had the huge option of having Maro draw the storyboards based off of those scenarios and setting. Whether or not to have Miya-san look over the things that he drew. In animation, once the storyboard is decided on, it’s pretty much set at that point. It just depends on if Miya-san gives the final go-ahead.
Ninomiya: So what did you decide to do?
Yonebayashi: …I decided to not show it to him--.
Ninomiya: Eh-.
Suzuki: We decided to not show him a single thing. So then we went to go tell him that.
Ninomiya: What did Miyazaki-san say to that?
Suzuki: He said, “There’s a man!” (lol).
Everyone: (lol)!
Suzuki: Miya-san said, “Ok!” and was very happy about it.
Ninomiya: Eh-! But there’s a lot of pressure on you then, isn’t there?
Suzuki: You know, he’s the type of person who thinks that if he has the time to feel pressure, then he needs to instead focus on the work that’s in front of him. That’s one of Maro’s traits.
Ninomiya: That’s really amazing.
Suzuki: Yes! I really admire that about him. So during the making of the storyboard, well, as you know it’s his work of a first-time director, right? Normally they put their all over the entire thing. But Maro, he knew that since there was only a year to make it, he had gone through and decided which parts needed to be worked on fully, and which ones could be glossed over a little. I was a little surprised at that. He was the first of all the new directors I’ve seen at Ghibli to do that.
Ninomiya: Eh-! You didn’t want to go at top speed through the whole thing?
Yonebayashi: Because I thought from the beginning that it wouldn’t be able to be done without borrowing strength from other people.
Ninomiya: But I’m sure most first-time directors would feel like they would do it all, and at top speed.
Suzuki: Yes. Most people think they will run everything themselves. Especially if they’re younger. But he was different.
Ninomiya: That’s amazing.
Suzuki: To put it simply, he’s someone with grace/virtue. That never came out beforehand. Though I did think that he was not the kind of person to openly make of show of leading people.
Yonebayashi: I’m the exact opposite. Even when we all travel together I think, “I hope someone else comes up with the itinerary.”
Suzuki: But, occasionally his director-like stubbornness does come out. Like he wouldn’t give up the idea of having it rain even though it is sunny. In that way he is like Miya-san.
Ninomiya: Oh, he’s stubborn. Do you think you’re stubborn?
Yonebayashi: Hmm… I don’t think that I’m particularly stubborn.
Suzuki: That’s usually what stubborn people say (lol). Do you have a movie that you like?
Ninomiya: I really like “Whisper of the Heart.”
Yonebayashi: I also first thought about working at Ghibli after watching “Whisper of the Heart.”
Ninomiya: It’s good right!
Yonebayashi: It’s good.
Suzuki: What do you like about it?
Ninomiya: I think, it has everything that I would have liked my adolescence to be like. Like the landscapes and all, I think that I would have liked to have lived my adolescence in a place like that.
Suzuki: The landscapes of the town are all based on real places. Only, we took out or reduced various things from the real places, like the telephone poles, electric lines, or signs/billboards. One of Miya-san’s ideas was to definitely put in every place at least twice in the movie. Even the streetcorners. And, to show them from a different angle.
Ninomiya: Why is that?
Suzuki: If you show the same spot twice, even if you change the angle, then it leaves an impression with the audience. Then they think, “Oh, that’s that spot,” and it becomes part of their own world. That’s why every place definitely comes out at least twice.
Ninomiya: That makes sense.
Suzuki: Miya-san was even thinking of things like that.
Ninomiya: Why do you like “Whisper of the Heart,” director?
Yonebayashi: First, it was very fresh/new. It had a freshness that I hadn’t seen in a movie before, and I thought that’s where the future was. I mean, the movie before that was “Porco Rosso” after all (lol). So I had wondered why they made this guy’s movies. And then suddenly the next one was a coming of age story.
Ninomiya: It was sudden, wasn’t it? I also had that feeling. So then conversely, how would you like “The Secret World of Arrietty” to be viewed?
Yonebayashi: Just how I felt after watching “Whisper of the Heart,” I’d be happy if the people who watched the movie come away thinking that it’s fresh or full of hope.
Suzuki-san and Yonebayashi-san were both quite congenial during the discussion, despite their being in the midst of working on “The Secret World of Arreitty,” and must have been quite tense in actuality. Ninomiya thanked them, and with his heart full of gratitude, left Studio Ghibli. Then the group returned to the starting point of today’s trip, Koganei Park, and reflected over the special interviews.
“Having a director like Maro-san is great. I’m sure it’s because Suzuki-san and Miyazaki-san are like they are, that they chose someone opposite them like Maro-san. Someone who has something that they don’t, in a way. People like that are necessary. Maro-san’s attitude, of feeling like doing the directing isn’t something all that special, is great too. It’s a good balance. I really liked “Whisper of the Heart.” That’s really a masterpiece~. Ghibli animes are shown repeatedly on tv, and are out on DVD, but it’s really amazing that you can easily watch them multiple times. Miyamoto-san, who made Mario, had also mentioned wanting to make something that can be played with for a long time, and that’s something they have in common. And also, both Ghibli and Nintendo don’t have that arrogance like they’re at the forefront of entertainment. Though of course they take pride in what they do. But at the same time, it doesn’t feel like they’re trying to be modest. They were very natural. And it didn’t feel like a lecture or anything either. I really was given a lot of different things to think about, and I’m happy to have gone.”
With his strong and brave heart as his weapon, Ninomiya went in to talk to the people that represent Japanese entertainment on these trips to Kyoto and Tokyo. Ninomiya was able to take away very important things, not only for himself individually, but also for the group of Arashi. It was also a trip that resulted in the huge challenge of what’s coming ahead. Ninomiya’s trip, which started with the idea to “experience Japan’s entertainment!”, came to an end here, but perhaps the trip for Arashi, having received a new task, is only just beginning.
And there we go! All of the members' trips are done now~! Yay! Next weekend I'll hopefully post the very last part of the book, which is a short crosstalk with all the members, where they tell each other about their trips, and that will be it!
Thanks for coming by~!
Masterpost is here.