Nippon no Arashi - Ninomiya (Part 1 of 2)
Yay~! We're on the last member's part now, and it's my lovely ichiban! Ahahaha, I've been looking forward to this one the most since he visits Nintendo and Ghibli, places that are a huge part of my own childhood too. Really enjoyed all the discussions that took place ^____^
I decided to split these into just 2 parts since the trip is already nicely split up that way.
Enjoy~!
Ninomiya Kazunari and Japanese Entertainment
Kyoto/Tokyo
The theme that Ninomiya Kazunari chose for his own trip was “Entertainment,” which is directly related to his own work. And then, the first places that came to mind were Nintendo and Studio Ghibli, both known around the world. Both of them carry the industries of “games” and “anime,” which have now become industries that represent Japan. With his directness/bluntness as his weapon, Ninomiya threw himself wholeheartedly into visiting the two giants of companies.
Nintendo and Mario. The reason why they will always be loved by everyone
The start of this trip was at Kyoto station. Ever since its establishment, Nintendo has had its headquarters in Kyoto, where it still is today. To begin, Ninomiya, who took the first train to Kyoto from Tokyo, met up with the staff at the hotel by the station. Unlike the other members, Ninomiya’s trip was focused primarily on the interviews only, and he was all fired up to make the most of the limited time. For Ninomiya, a huge gamer that says he learned a lot of important lessons from playing games, Nintendo is indeed a company that he admires. Not only that, but he was going to be able to speak directly with Miyamoto Shigeru-San, who created Mario, a character that he’s played with since childhood.
Despite still having some time before the scheduled meeting, Ninomiya, seemingly unable to contain his eagerness, insisted on going, saying, "I want to see the Nintendo building as soon as I can!" As if being led by those feelings of his, the group ended the meeting and set out early from the hotel.
The instant the Nintendo building, which was not far from the station, came into view, Ninomiya became super excited. And then, they arrived at Nintendo in no time. They were shown in and entered the building with hearts pounding, but the inside was unexpectedly simple in appearance. Ninomiya had imagined that there would be Mario and his friends put up everywhere, and he was surprised to see the inside so plain and unaffected. The only place there was a character to be seen was on their guest badges. But it would soon become clear that that modesty/reservation is very true to Nintendo.
First, they were shown to a large drawing room. On the large monitor set up in front, there was the screen from the first "Super Mario Brothers" game. Ninomiya said, "I've seen this starting screen I don’t know how many times." And then, the two people that created Mario walked into the room. Miyamoto Shigeru-san (57 years-old), known as the most famous game creator in Japan, and Tezuka Takashi-san (49 years-old), who at the time worked together with Miyamoto-san as a young newbie in the development of Mario. Ninomiya took a deep breath, and now, it was time to start this happy three-man conversation.
Ninomiya: Hello! Please treat me kindly! Man, I'm so nervous.
Miyamoto: No no, I'm the one that's nervous (lol).
Ninomiya: Really!?
Miyamoto: Please, feel free to relax (lol).
Ninomiya: I still can’t help but be nervous, after all.
Tezuka: When was the first time that you played Mario?
Ninomiya: I'm the same age as the Famicom. I was born in 1983.
Tezuka: And the Super Famicom came out in 1990.
Ninomiya: I was in first grade then.
Miyamoto: Perhaps the first Mario game you played was "(Super) Marip World", judging from your age?
Ninomiya: No, it was 1 ("Super Mario Brothers").
Miyamoto: I see. The first one was played for quite a long time, it seems.
Ninomiya: Um, I know this is random, but...
Miyamoto: Yes.
Ninomiya: Why does Mario get big when he grabs a mushroom? There are other things that would have worked too, like meat or milk.
Miyamoto: Mario originally appeared in the game "Donkey Kong" and was a more realistic character. He is a carpenter. But then for "Super Mario," we wanted to make it more like a fantasy with a more absurd story, so we thought having him get bigger would make sense. There are lots of fairy tales like "Alice in Wonderland." So then, we thought a mushroom would fit perfectly for something that would cause strange things to happen if you ate it.
Ninomiya: I see. How did Mario wind up becoming a character like that in the first place?
Miyamoto: When we were making "Donkey Kong," we only had about 7 pixels vertically to use for the face in the first place. The hat was 2 pixels, under the hat was 1 pixel, the nose was 2 pixels, the moustache was 1 pixel, and the chin was 1 pixel. That makes 7. And, for the whole body we had 16 pixels. When you want to draw something that looks like a person within these limitations, if you don’t do something like give them a mustache and a hat, you wouldn't be able to tell it's a person, right? The reason that Mario wears overalls too, is because when he faces to the side and moves his arms in the animation, if it was all the same color you wouldn't be able to see his arms anymore. Everything was done for a logical reason.
Ninomiya: And that’s how he came to look like that.
Miyamoto: Yes. And then, we thought he looked kind of Italian.
Ninomiya: Eh? Mario is Italian?
Miyamoto: No, he's an Italian American that lives in New York (lol). There are a few reasons for this, the first being that I like America. And, I like Italian artwork. And "Mario Brothers," which we made after "Donley Kong," is supposed to be a kind of underground city below New York that you get to with an earthen pipe. So that's why he works with pipes.
Ninomiya: Yes, I'd heard the theories/opinions that he is a plumber.
Miyamoto: For "Mario Brothers," we made him a plumber. "Donkey Kong" takes place at a construction site, so he was a carpenter. Then the next game was in a New York underground city, so he was a plumber. Everything is just a makeshift story (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Tezuka: Actually, the gameplay is made first, and the drawings and designs come after that.
Miyamoto: The gameplay is finished first, and then later we make the story to put it all together nicely.
Ninomiya: Wow~.
Tezuka: Miyamoto has consistently stayed with this process even to this day.
Miyamoto: It’s always this way.
Ninomiya: But nowadays there are a lot of games that emphasize the story more. What do you think about that?
Miyamoto: It’s great if the story is what gets remembered at the end of it all, but it's pretty difficult to make the gameplay off of the story. I personally like playing more interactive games where I can control more things within them. So if you start with the story, you have to then somehow force the gameplay into it, but for me it's easier to make the foundation of some fun gameplay, and then make a story around that.
Ninomiya: I see. That's true for Mario~.
Miyamoto: But if I tell you all that, it takes all the wonder out of it for you (lol).
Ninomiya: No no. What I think is really amazing about it, is that when Arashi was filming a music video, during the break times the 5 of us were all playing "Super Mario Galaxy." And, while one of us is filming their solo shots, the other 4 have nothing to do. So, while A is filming their part, the other 4 are playing, and then when A finishes and B goes to start filming, they trade places. And, the game is made such that even though A came in part way through, they can tell exactly where they need to go next. It's not about being a family friendly game or having the game difficulty be easy, but I think there are few games where a person coming in part way can participate right away just as much as the others.
Miyamoto: That makes me happy to hear. Tezuka and I often talk about making games that are not geared toward children, but making games that even children can understand. If a game is geared towards children, then adults won’t want to play it, right? We want to make games that adults wouldn't be embarrassed to play. We also think it’s important to make it so that even first time players can understand it.
Ninomiya: That’s what I think is really amazing.
Tezuka: It makes me happy when something we focused on while making the games is praised.
Miyamoto: Also, I like it when people do unnecessary things while they're playing games. You'd be surprised if when you went into a grassy area and thumped the ground, something popped up on the other side of the mountain, right? I often think up rewards like that for the people that do random unneccessary things. So, we do make the games in real time, and often we add things in as we ourselves play through them. We think the most standard and easiest way to play a game is to have little unexpected things happen as you go through the natural flow of the game. If we push it too far, people won’t be able to follow it anymore.
Tezuka: In the beginning Miyamoto and I would start by drawing the map layout on paper, and we'd imagine as we went, like "Probably, the player will get to this point and stop. Then, we'll have a mushroom pop out here, and the player will be surprised and keep going."
Ninomiya: That's just so amazing. You're basically luring on tens of millions of people, after all (lol).
Miyamoto: Well, we do have some anticipation/prediction of what will happen, and we check to see that that is actually happening as we make the games, but it's also fun to see how things expand even more when something happens that we didn’t predict.
Tezuka: It’s fun to see people play in ways better than what we came up with.
Miyamoto: That's true. The true character/flavor of a game won’t come out unless the players use it a lot.
Ninomiya: Yes. That's true.
Miyamoto: We make them so that they will be used for a long time, in other words, they are tools. It's not something like a movie where after you show it, you've finished with it, but it's something you use, a tool. You need to understand how to use them, and use them well before they become interesting/fun.
Ninomiya: Ah~ I see.
Miyamoto: And then, it becomes that person’s thing, and has its own charm that has nothing to do with the creator. After that all that's left is to see how much you can lead/pull on your audience's empathy. This is probably the same with dramas or stage plays, but if your audience gets on board with you, then it will start rolling even if you don’t do anything. That's what I think is fun.
Ninomiya: That's amazing. With "Super Mario," what was it that you were trying to realize/actualize, Miyamoto-san?
Miyamoto: An effect/reaction. Like something profound or that feels good. So we experimented to see what kind of reaction/effect we'd have if Mario became a little bit bigger. And it turned out to be a good thing.
Tezuka: Nowadays Super Mario is a normal size, but back then, we started development by wanting to make a game where a larger character runs around, despite the limitations of the hardware are the time.
Miyamoto: But, everyone that made games for the Famicom had the same conditions as us. It was like a regulated competition to see just how amazing of a game you could make within the limitations we had.
Ninomiya: I see. It's like how figure skating works.
Miyamoto: It was seeing how much more outstanding of a thing could you make when all of the rules are set.
Ninomiya: Did you two already enjoy playing games to begin with?
Miyamoto: When I started working at Nintendo, video games didn’t exist yet. Then, probably the next year after I started, Space Invaders became a huge hit with the public. Everyone was at the cafes paying to play it, and it started from there. Nintendo began making games to be used at businesses, and when they released "Donkey Kong" it sold pretty well. Up until then, games were things made by engineers/technicians using soldering irons, so to have people like me who drew pictures make games, it felt very out of place.
Ninomiya: Oh, is that how it was!
Miyamoto: It wasn’t really common. The people who drew the pictures were in the position of being assistants. I think we were the first to have the drawing people direct the making of the game overall. And that's when he came. Tezuka-kun, when did you start here?
Tezuka: I started in '84. It was the year after the Famicom came out, and I think they still had the Game & Watch too.
Ninomiya: Yeah they did.
Tezuka: I originally studied design, and did sill screen illustrating in college. It wasn’t at all that I particularly loved games or wanted to make them that I came to Nintendo, I just felt like I might be able to do something interesting there (lol). Also, they still had a strong image as a company that made playing cards and hanafuda (TN: traditional Japanese card game) at the time. But, I did think that I'd probably be doing designs for something that would be used for play.
Ninomiya: So, actually, you learned about video games after you had already started working here.
Tezuka: Yes.
Miyamoto: We didn't have any textbooks or anything.
Ninomiya: Are there schools for this kind of thing now?
Miyamoto: There are now. But here, while we may hire people based on how much they love games, we don’t hire them based on how much they know about them.
Ninomiya: Eh.
Miyamoto: Because, knowing about games is different than making them after all. So that's why knowing about them doesn’t really have anything to do with it.
Ninomiya: I really think that the standards for making games is set by Nintendo. But is that because of the environment in which you're making them? How is that you can continue making the new standards from Kyoto and not Tokyo?
Miyamoto: Looking back now, I'm glad we've been in Kyoto, but it's certainly true that you do have a lot of aspirations about Tokyo in your 20s.
Ninomiya: Right?
Miyamoto: I was told things like we'd be left behind if we didn’t keep up with what was going on in Tokyo, or that designers only mature when they hit 30. But gradually, rather than trying to keep up with the new things in Tokyo, it became more important to us to figure out what it was that only we could do, that no one else could do. We didn’t think of it as competing with them. I feel like it'd be bad if we did feel like it is. And I don’t really aspire to be like Tokyo. I've said this for a long while, but I think of Tokyo as "Tokyo local." If you make things that are popular in Tokyo, from the world’s perspective, it’s still local. Like, "I can understand if you wanted to make New York your standard, but isn’t Tokyo a bit too local?" If that's the case, it is much calmer in Kyoto.
Tezuka: Right now, I don’t think we have anyone here that feels like they can’t make anything new unless they're in Tokyo.
Ninomiya: Has it always been this way?
Miyamoto: Hmm~ maybe it’s gradually become like this.
Ninomiya: But, if your release dates overlap with another game, don’t you feel like you want yours to sell the most?
Miyamoto: That may be. But what I most want is for it to sell for a long time.
Ninomiya: Us in Arashi feel exactly the same way. We can see from Mario the strength that things have when they are beloved for a long time.
Miyamoto: And you feel that way even more if you've already experienced it in the past. But if really think about it, he (Tezuka) and I, we've been working here for 30 years already. And our team still is working together to this day.
Tezuka: Yes.
Miyamoto: We've pretty much always worked together. I think that's fairly uncommon in the creative industry. But it feels so natural to us now, it'd be such trouble to go anywhere else (lol).
Ninomiya: That's indeed quite amazing. The forerunners have stayed together all this time. It must be an environment that allows you to only focus on what you like.
Miyamoto: Yes. It’s something I've come to realize over time. I really don’t have to worry myself about anything other than making the games. I've been blessed to have such an environment.
Ninomiya: It’s wonderful to be able to say that about your environment. Um... since we're here and all, could we play some Mario together?
Miyamoto: Sure. You'll be surprised how bad I am at it though (lol). But, I can at least make it through the whole game! That's pretty good for someone in their 50s (lol).
Ninomiya: Yeah, but you're the one that made the game, after all!
The Mario game started up all of a sudden. They competed in a Coin Battle in "New Super Mario Brothers Wii." And Ninomiya won by a mile. Even playing Mario with people you admire is satisfying enough, but winning also, Ninomiya looked very happy indeed.
The people who wrote the inspiring music of Mario
After spending a wonderful time with Miyamoto-san and Tezuka-san, the group moved over to the sound room. The next people they were meeting were Kondo Kouji-san (49 years-old), who alone was in charge of the music for "Super Mario Brothers," and Uchida Sanae-san (29 years-old), who was in charge of the sound effects production for "New Super Mario Brothers Wii." Actually, one big dream of Ninomiya’s is to create music for video games. While processing the joy of being able to step into the place of his dreams, he entered the sound room. Soon Kondo-san and Uchida-san entered the room, which is normally often used for recording narrations or voice actors' parts. Their discussion was full of the sincerity/honestly of the company called Nintendo.
Ninomiya: Hello~! My name is Ninomiya. Please treat me kindly.
Kondo/Uchida: Please treat us kindly.
Ninomiya: What was the reason that you two came to work here in the first place?
Kondo: I started here the year after the Famicom came out, and I thought, "This is it!" and Nintendo was the only place that hired me.
Ninomiya: Is that right! That's amazing. So then, right after that is when you met Mario?
Kondo: Yes. Until then, I'd mostly been in charge of the sound effects for games like, "Soccer" or "Golf." Then just by chance, when it was decided we were making "Super Mario," I was told, "Ok, then for this one, we'll have you do it, Kondo-kun."
Ninomiya: You were told with that kind of mood!? Like, "Now it's your turn" (lol). Did you feel any pressure?
Kondo: Well, not really pressure, but I knew right from the beginning that this was going to be an awesome game, so I thought it was my chance. So, I wanted to make something the world had never seen before.
Ninomiya: About how old were you at the time?
Kondo: I've worked here for about 20 years, so maybe I was around 24?
Ninomiya: Wow!
Kondo: It was released the summer of my second year with the company.
Ninomiya: It was really just taking turns. Man~ that is amazing! At only 2 years in, didn’t you have worries that you might not be able to do it, even if it was your turn?
Uchida: But, at this company, you're put in charge of things right away from your first year. I also was included in Mario games right from my first year. Like, "Eh, there’s no training or anything?" Just right away, "Ok, go make it" (lol).
Ninomiya: You don’t have the time to even feel any pressure.
Uchida: You don’t have time to think, "what do I do," you just think, "I have to make it."
Kondo: Because they hire people who look like they're ready to get started immediately.
Ninomiya: Why did you come to Nintendo, Uchida-san?
Uchida: I learned about the field of interactive music in college, and thought I wanted to do that. When you hear the terms interactive music or interactive art, they can sound lofty and hard to approach. But, when it comes to games, it actually can feel quite close and familiar. And I wanted to make things that people could play and enjoy, so I thought games would be a perfectly fine way to do that.
Ninomiya: Eh~. I see.
Uchida: I normally am in charge of the sound effects, but this "New Super Mario Brothers Wii" was the first time I was also responsible for the main sound programming as well. It's such a popular franchise that I did feel quite a lot of pressure.
Ninomiya: You couldn’t really change it too much from what Mario has always been either.
Uchida: That's true. So deciding what things to leave and what things to change was what troubled me the most. Because long time players of Mario will think, "When he enters a pipe, it has to be this sound" or "It has to play this melody when he gets a 1-up mushroom."
Ninomiya: That's true, when you play it, you feel like, "Yes, here it is!"
Uchida: No matter what, when you try to put in a new thing that hasn't been there before, you do waver over it. You wouldn't worry too much about putting new things in a completely new title, but no matter what, you think about putting new things in a title that's been loved for a long time. So, every so often I wind up going to Kondo and asking him things. Like, "What feelings were you conveying in the sounds with that part there?"
Kondo: But, putting sounds into words is quite difficult.
Ninomiya: In the first place, how long did it take you to make the music for the first "Super Mario?"
Kondo: Mario was pretty short. Maybe about 6 months. Back then, there wasn’t as much volume to make.
Ninomiya: But even so, you made the music to "Super Mario," music that anyone would recognize. Do you ever brag about that when you've had a little too much to drink? Like, "That was me, who made that" (lol).
Kondo: No, I don’t (lol).
Ninomiya: Really!? Music that's permeated so much across generations and different countries, but to you it's just another song that’s part of your own history?
Kondo: Pretty much. When I made it back then I never thought it would spread as much as it has. Though now, I do think, "Ah, it’s become this popular."
Ninomiya: By the way, when you first made the music, you played the game with no sound at all and then just imagined the sounds?
Kondo: Yes. When you play the game, you can get a sense for the rhythm of the characters movements, right? First I think of that rhythm for the music, then the bass. Then, while playing the rhythm and the bass, I play on the piano to come up with a melody that fits with them. But, I can’t do it that well here at work. Especially for things like the main BGM. So, I'll go home and while I'm sitting the bath or something, the melody will come floating into my head.
Ninomiya: What do you do with that? Do you go and play the piano naked?
Kondo: No no (lol), I just remember it, and if I still remember it the next day, then it's a good song.
Ninomiya: I see! In "Super Mario," which part of the game was the music finished for first?
Kondo: The first one was for the underwater parts. It was the easiest to picture, and was a nice slow, waltz-type song. It was finished in no time.
Ninomiya: What was the last one to be done?
Kondo: That was, not surprisingly, the ending song. Because in making the game, the ending is the last part that gets made.
Ninomiya: Ah. So then, you were able to progress through it all without making too many large changes.
Kondo: Yes. But, the main song I made for the aboveground parts was rejected. When I first saw the main screen for "Super Mario," with its green grass and blue skies, it was unlike any other game I'd seen before, so I made a relaxed song, like you were jogging through a field that looked like that. But then I was told, "This doesn’t quite fit with the game." So then I made a song that was a bit more rhythmical and that's the song we have today.
Ninomiya: Oh, then for you, Kondo-San, it's actually your second song.
Kondo: Yes.
Ninomiya: By the way, who was the person that rejected your song?
Kondo: Miyamoto (lol). But, a few other people had told me, "This song sounds weird" too.
Ninomiya: But, how did it feel, to be told, "Eh? This doesn’t really fit, does it?" about a song that you worked so hard on? Did you try to argue against that?
Kondo: I don’t really remember many of my things getting rejected. Because I usually only play the songs that I think are it, for other people. So, I don’t really remember any of the other songs besides that aboveground one getting rejected.
Ninomiya: That's amazing.
Kondo: It’s because to make one song, I make many songs through trial and error on my own.
Ninomiya: What about you, Uchida-san? If something of yours is rejected, do you sometimes feel like, "They dont get it~" at all?
Uchida: Everyone says things in a nice way. It goes both ways, but it's because we all want to feel good about working here.
Ninomiya: It’s because you all have such composure/calm.
Uchida: That's why, I think our atmosphere is good. It feels like everyone respects each other.
Ninomiya: That must be the Nintendo spirit after all. That's so nice~! Also, I really get this sense too, but with tv, music, and movies, in any of those industries, people become legends only after they pass away. But, in the world of games, there are still this many people around who were the pioneers of the industry. Uchida-san, tell me honestly, doesn’t that make it hard for you?
Uchida: (lol).
Ninomiya: Though I'm sure it's hard for you to say it (lol).
Kondo: Like, "Hurry up and retire already!" (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol). There are still so many legends actively working here.
Uchida: Yes. That's true.
Ninomiya: Perhaps for you Uchida-san, it seems completely normal, but from my perspective, it's very special/unique.
Uchida: That's true. But, working on Mario this time, I was able to study all kinds of things with Kondo, like the way his music notes for the sound effects are, and I really learned a lot.
Ninomiya: I'm sure!
Uchida: I made a lot of discoveries, like this is how he made the music. So, for him to be here now, I'm.... (lol)
Ninomiya: You're thankful he's here (lol). But of course you are. You want to inherit all that you can from him while you can after all.
Uchida: Yes.
Kondo: Well, but for me, I'd rather you put in more and more fun, new ideas, than just inherit from me. I'm not all that set on what I originally made.
Ninomiya: You just want Mario to continue to evolve by adding the new things.
Kondo: Yes. If Mario becomes even more fun, then I think it's ok.
Ninomiya: I see what you're saying. But, that's tough for you, Uchida-san.
Uchida: It’s hard (lol).
Ninomiya: Ever since I was in high school, I've wanted to write music for video games. I often used to come home, and if I had time, I would decide on a scenario in a game and write the music for it. So, I really admire the people who make the music for video games. Um, Kondo-san, this might be weird to ask, but do you ever get asked, "Here, play it for us!" at like school reunions or something?
Kondo: Hmmm... well there’s not usually a keyboard or anything there.
Ninomiya: Oh, so would you play it if there was one?
Kondo: I wonder.
Ninomiya: There just happens to be a keyboard over there, you know (lol).
Kondo: I'll play it.
Ninomiya: Eh, really! Yay~!
In answer to Ninomiya’s very leading suggestion, Kondo-san played the "Super Mario" theme song for them live. At the unexpected event right at the end, everyone, and of course Ninomiya also, gave him a big round of applause!
Ninomiya: Uwa, that's how it sounds live. I never thought I'd get to hear it played live.
Kondo: It’s not that big a deal (lol).
Ninomiya: No way, that was unbelievable! Today was the happiest day!
They said goodbye to the two, and left the sound room. And then, they headed to Kyoto Station. It was evening. The blue sky was still beautifully sparkling, as if Ninomiya’s feelings at the end of this special day were being projected onto it. And after today, looking at the Nintendo building standing there dignified, it felt like it had become a very close and familiar presence now.
"Now, looking back on it, the simple look of the company expresses everything. Even though it feels like they're always two or three steps ahead of everyone else, their uniforms and all were plain and simple. But, no one was dissatisfied or sour about that. That's probably because everyone at Nintendo is so interesting/unique themselves. Also, it was really new/fresh to hear them think of games as tools. That they want people to use for a long time. But that's why they become loved for so long. They really haven't changed as a company since the era when they made playing cards and hanafuda cards. They're all nothing more than tools meant to make daily life more fun. They’re amazing, after all. They're relaxed in just the right way. Even Mario was a carpenter at first and then for the next one he was a plumber. He kind of changes jobs a lot. So, he's actually surprisingly not as determined/brave as we all think (lol). It’s just awesome that even so he's a character that's loved the world over (lol)."
That's it for the Nintendo part! Next will be Studio Ghibli, here!
Masterpost is here.
I decided to split these into just 2 parts since the trip is already nicely split up that way.
Enjoy~!
Ninomiya Kazunari and Japanese Entertainment
Kyoto/Tokyo
The theme that Ninomiya Kazunari chose for his own trip was “Entertainment,” which is directly related to his own work. And then, the first places that came to mind were Nintendo and Studio Ghibli, both known around the world. Both of them carry the industries of “games” and “anime,” which have now become industries that represent Japan. With his directness/bluntness as his weapon, Ninomiya threw himself wholeheartedly into visiting the two giants of companies.
Nintendo and Mario. The reason why they will always be loved by everyone
The start of this trip was at Kyoto station. Ever since its establishment, Nintendo has had its headquarters in Kyoto, where it still is today. To begin, Ninomiya, who took the first train to Kyoto from Tokyo, met up with the staff at the hotel by the station. Unlike the other members, Ninomiya’s trip was focused primarily on the interviews only, and he was all fired up to make the most of the limited time. For Ninomiya, a huge gamer that says he learned a lot of important lessons from playing games, Nintendo is indeed a company that he admires. Not only that, but he was going to be able to speak directly with Miyamoto Shigeru-San, who created Mario, a character that he’s played with since childhood.
Despite still having some time before the scheduled meeting, Ninomiya, seemingly unable to contain his eagerness, insisted on going, saying, "I want to see the Nintendo building as soon as I can!" As if being led by those feelings of his, the group ended the meeting and set out early from the hotel.
The instant the Nintendo building, which was not far from the station, came into view, Ninomiya became super excited. And then, they arrived at Nintendo in no time. They were shown in and entered the building with hearts pounding, but the inside was unexpectedly simple in appearance. Ninomiya had imagined that there would be Mario and his friends put up everywhere, and he was surprised to see the inside so plain and unaffected. The only place there was a character to be seen was on their guest badges. But it would soon become clear that that modesty/reservation is very true to Nintendo.
First, they were shown to a large drawing room. On the large monitor set up in front, there was the screen from the first "Super Mario Brothers" game. Ninomiya said, "I've seen this starting screen I don’t know how many times." And then, the two people that created Mario walked into the room. Miyamoto Shigeru-san (57 years-old), known as the most famous game creator in Japan, and Tezuka Takashi-san (49 years-old), who at the time worked together with Miyamoto-san as a young newbie in the development of Mario. Ninomiya took a deep breath, and now, it was time to start this happy three-man conversation.
Ninomiya: Hello! Please treat me kindly! Man, I'm so nervous.
Miyamoto: No no, I'm the one that's nervous (lol).
Ninomiya: Really!?
Miyamoto: Please, feel free to relax (lol).
Ninomiya: I still can’t help but be nervous, after all.
Tezuka: When was the first time that you played Mario?
Ninomiya: I'm the same age as the Famicom. I was born in 1983.
Tezuka: And the Super Famicom came out in 1990.
Ninomiya: I was in first grade then.
Miyamoto: Perhaps the first Mario game you played was "(Super) Marip World", judging from your age?
Ninomiya: No, it was 1 ("Super Mario Brothers").
Miyamoto: I see. The first one was played for quite a long time, it seems.
Ninomiya: Um, I know this is random, but...
Miyamoto: Yes.
Ninomiya: Why does Mario get big when he grabs a mushroom? There are other things that would have worked too, like meat or milk.
Miyamoto: Mario originally appeared in the game "Donkey Kong" and was a more realistic character. He is a carpenter. But then for "Super Mario," we wanted to make it more like a fantasy with a more absurd story, so we thought having him get bigger would make sense. There are lots of fairy tales like "Alice in Wonderland." So then, we thought a mushroom would fit perfectly for something that would cause strange things to happen if you ate it.
Ninomiya: I see. How did Mario wind up becoming a character like that in the first place?
Miyamoto: When we were making "Donkey Kong," we only had about 7 pixels vertically to use for the face in the first place. The hat was 2 pixels, under the hat was 1 pixel, the nose was 2 pixels, the moustache was 1 pixel, and the chin was 1 pixel. That makes 7. And, for the whole body we had 16 pixels. When you want to draw something that looks like a person within these limitations, if you don’t do something like give them a mustache and a hat, you wouldn't be able to tell it's a person, right? The reason that Mario wears overalls too, is because when he faces to the side and moves his arms in the animation, if it was all the same color you wouldn't be able to see his arms anymore. Everything was done for a logical reason.
Ninomiya: And that’s how he came to look like that.
Miyamoto: Yes. And then, we thought he looked kind of Italian.
Ninomiya: Eh? Mario is Italian?
Miyamoto: No, he's an Italian American that lives in New York (lol). There are a few reasons for this, the first being that I like America. And, I like Italian artwork. And "Mario Brothers," which we made after "Donley Kong," is supposed to be a kind of underground city below New York that you get to with an earthen pipe. So that's why he works with pipes.
Ninomiya: Yes, I'd heard the theories/opinions that he is a plumber.
Miyamoto: For "Mario Brothers," we made him a plumber. "Donkey Kong" takes place at a construction site, so he was a carpenter. Then the next game was in a New York underground city, so he was a plumber. Everything is just a makeshift story (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol).
Tezuka: Actually, the gameplay is made first, and the drawings and designs come after that.
Miyamoto: The gameplay is finished first, and then later we make the story to put it all together nicely.
Ninomiya: Wow~.
Tezuka: Miyamoto has consistently stayed with this process even to this day.
Miyamoto: It’s always this way.
Ninomiya: But nowadays there are a lot of games that emphasize the story more. What do you think about that?
Miyamoto: It’s great if the story is what gets remembered at the end of it all, but it's pretty difficult to make the gameplay off of the story. I personally like playing more interactive games where I can control more things within them. So if you start with the story, you have to then somehow force the gameplay into it, but for me it's easier to make the foundation of some fun gameplay, and then make a story around that.
Ninomiya: I see. That's true for Mario~.
Miyamoto: But if I tell you all that, it takes all the wonder out of it for you (lol).
Ninomiya: No no. What I think is really amazing about it, is that when Arashi was filming a music video, during the break times the 5 of us were all playing "Super Mario Galaxy." And, while one of us is filming their solo shots, the other 4 have nothing to do. So, while A is filming their part, the other 4 are playing, and then when A finishes and B goes to start filming, they trade places. And, the game is made such that even though A came in part way through, they can tell exactly where they need to go next. It's not about being a family friendly game or having the game difficulty be easy, but I think there are few games where a person coming in part way can participate right away just as much as the others.
Miyamoto: That makes me happy to hear. Tezuka and I often talk about making games that are not geared toward children, but making games that even children can understand. If a game is geared towards children, then adults won’t want to play it, right? We want to make games that adults wouldn't be embarrassed to play. We also think it’s important to make it so that even first time players can understand it.
Ninomiya: That’s what I think is really amazing.
Tezuka: It makes me happy when something we focused on while making the games is praised.
Miyamoto: Also, I like it when people do unnecessary things while they're playing games. You'd be surprised if when you went into a grassy area and thumped the ground, something popped up on the other side of the mountain, right? I often think up rewards like that for the people that do random unneccessary things. So, we do make the games in real time, and often we add things in as we ourselves play through them. We think the most standard and easiest way to play a game is to have little unexpected things happen as you go through the natural flow of the game. If we push it too far, people won’t be able to follow it anymore.
Tezuka: In the beginning Miyamoto and I would start by drawing the map layout on paper, and we'd imagine as we went, like "Probably, the player will get to this point and stop. Then, we'll have a mushroom pop out here, and the player will be surprised and keep going."
Ninomiya: That's just so amazing. You're basically luring on tens of millions of people, after all (lol).
Miyamoto: Well, we do have some anticipation/prediction of what will happen, and we check to see that that is actually happening as we make the games, but it's also fun to see how things expand even more when something happens that we didn’t predict.
Tezuka: It’s fun to see people play in ways better than what we came up with.
Miyamoto: That's true. The true character/flavor of a game won’t come out unless the players use it a lot.
Ninomiya: Yes. That's true.
Miyamoto: We make them so that they will be used for a long time, in other words, they are tools. It's not something like a movie where after you show it, you've finished with it, but it's something you use, a tool. You need to understand how to use them, and use them well before they become interesting/fun.
Ninomiya: Ah~ I see.
Miyamoto: And then, it becomes that person’s thing, and has its own charm that has nothing to do with the creator. After that all that's left is to see how much you can lead/pull on your audience's empathy. This is probably the same with dramas or stage plays, but if your audience gets on board with you, then it will start rolling even if you don’t do anything. That's what I think is fun.
Ninomiya: That's amazing. With "Super Mario," what was it that you were trying to realize/actualize, Miyamoto-san?
Miyamoto: An effect/reaction. Like something profound or that feels good. So we experimented to see what kind of reaction/effect we'd have if Mario became a little bit bigger. And it turned out to be a good thing.
Tezuka: Nowadays Super Mario is a normal size, but back then, we started development by wanting to make a game where a larger character runs around, despite the limitations of the hardware are the time.
Miyamoto: But, everyone that made games for the Famicom had the same conditions as us. It was like a regulated competition to see just how amazing of a game you could make within the limitations we had.
Ninomiya: I see. It's like how figure skating works.
Miyamoto: It was seeing how much more outstanding of a thing could you make when all of the rules are set.
Ninomiya: Did you two already enjoy playing games to begin with?
Miyamoto: When I started working at Nintendo, video games didn’t exist yet. Then, probably the next year after I started, Space Invaders became a huge hit with the public. Everyone was at the cafes paying to play it, and it started from there. Nintendo began making games to be used at businesses, and when they released "Donkey Kong" it sold pretty well. Up until then, games were things made by engineers/technicians using soldering irons, so to have people like me who drew pictures make games, it felt very out of place.
Ninomiya: Oh, is that how it was!
Miyamoto: It wasn’t really common. The people who drew the pictures were in the position of being assistants. I think we were the first to have the drawing people direct the making of the game overall. And that's when he came. Tezuka-kun, when did you start here?
Tezuka: I started in '84. It was the year after the Famicom came out, and I think they still had the Game & Watch too.
Ninomiya: Yeah they did.
Tezuka: I originally studied design, and did sill screen illustrating in college. It wasn’t at all that I particularly loved games or wanted to make them that I came to Nintendo, I just felt like I might be able to do something interesting there (lol). Also, they still had a strong image as a company that made playing cards and hanafuda (TN: traditional Japanese card game) at the time. But, I did think that I'd probably be doing designs for something that would be used for play.
Ninomiya: So, actually, you learned about video games after you had already started working here.
Tezuka: Yes.
Miyamoto: We didn't have any textbooks or anything.
Ninomiya: Are there schools for this kind of thing now?
Miyamoto: There are now. But here, while we may hire people based on how much they love games, we don’t hire them based on how much they know about them.
Ninomiya: Eh.
Miyamoto: Because, knowing about games is different than making them after all. So that's why knowing about them doesn’t really have anything to do with it.
Ninomiya: I really think that the standards for making games is set by Nintendo. But is that because of the environment in which you're making them? How is that you can continue making the new standards from Kyoto and not Tokyo?
Miyamoto: Looking back now, I'm glad we've been in Kyoto, but it's certainly true that you do have a lot of aspirations about Tokyo in your 20s.
Ninomiya: Right?
Miyamoto: I was told things like we'd be left behind if we didn’t keep up with what was going on in Tokyo, or that designers only mature when they hit 30. But gradually, rather than trying to keep up with the new things in Tokyo, it became more important to us to figure out what it was that only we could do, that no one else could do. We didn’t think of it as competing with them. I feel like it'd be bad if we did feel like it is. And I don’t really aspire to be like Tokyo. I've said this for a long while, but I think of Tokyo as "Tokyo local." If you make things that are popular in Tokyo, from the world’s perspective, it’s still local. Like, "I can understand if you wanted to make New York your standard, but isn’t Tokyo a bit too local?" If that's the case, it is much calmer in Kyoto.
Tezuka: Right now, I don’t think we have anyone here that feels like they can’t make anything new unless they're in Tokyo.
Ninomiya: Has it always been this way?
Miyamoto: Hmm~ maybe it’s gradually become like this.
Ninomiya: But, if your release dates overlap with another game, don’t you feel like you want yours to sell the most?
Miyamoto: That may be. But what I most want is for it to sell for a long time.
Ninomiya: Us in Arashi feel exactly the same way. We can see from Mario the strength that things have when they are beloved for a long time.
Miyamoto: And you feel that way even more if you've already experienced it in the past. But if really think about it, he (Tezuka) and I, we've been working here for 30 years already. And our team still is working together to this day.
Tezuka: Yes.
Miyamoto: We've pretty much always worked together. I think that's fairly uncommon in the creative industry. But it feels so natural to us now, it'd be such trouble to go anywhere else (lol).
Ninomiya: That's indeed quite amazing. The forerunners have stayed together all this time. It must be an environment that allows you to only focus on what you like.
Miyamoto: Yes. It’s something I've come to realize over time. I really don’t have to worry myself about anything other than making the games. I've been blessed to have such an environment.
Ninomiya: It’s wonderful to be able to say that about your environment. Um... since we're here and all, could we play some Mario together?
Miyamoto: Sure. You'll be surprised how bad I am at it though (lol). But, I can at least make it through the whole game! That's pretty good for someone in their 50s (lol).
Ninomiya: Yeah, but you're the one that made the game, after all!
The Mario game started up all of a sudden. They competed in a Coin Battle in "New Super Mario Brothers Wii." And Ninomiya won by a mile. Even playing Mario with people you admire is satisfying enough, but winning also, Ninomiya looked very happy indeed.
The people who wrote the inspiring music of Mario
After spending a wonderful time with Miyamoto-san and Tezuka-san, the group moved over to the sound room. The next people they were meeting were Kondo Kouji-san (49 years-old), who alone was in charge of the music for "Super Mario Brothers," and Uchida Sanae-san (29 years-old), who was in charge of the sound effects production for "New Super Mario Brothers Wii." Actually, one big dream of Ninomiya’s is to create music for video games. While processing the joy of being able to step into the place of his dreams, he entered the sound room. Soon Kondo-san and Uchida-san entered the room, which is normally often used for recording narrations or voice actors' parts. Their discussion was full of the sincerity/honestly of the company called Nintendo.
Ninomiya: Hello~! My name is Ninomiya. Please treat me kindly.
Kondo/Uchida: Please treat us kindly.
Ninomiya: What was the reason that you two came to work here in the first place?
Kondo: I started here the year after the Famicom came out, and I thought, "This is it!" and Nintendo was the only place that hired me.
Ninomiya: Is that right! That's amazing. So then, right after that is when you met Mario?
Kondo: Yes. Until then, I'd mostly been in charge of the sound effects for games like, "Soccer" or "Golf." Then just by chance, when it was decided we were making "Super Mario," I was told, "Ok, then for this one, we'll have you do it, Kondo-kun."
Ninomiya: You were told with that kind of mood!? Like, "Now it's your turn" (lol). Did you feel any pressure?
Kondo: Well, not really pressure, but I knew right from the beginning that this was going to be an awesome game, so I thought it was my chance. So, I wanted to make something the world had never seen before.
Ninomiya: About how old were you at the time?
Kondo: I've worked here for about 20 years, so maybe I was around 24?
Ninomiya: Wow!
Kondo: It was released the summer of my second year with the company.
Ninomiya: It was really just taking turns. Man~ that is amazing! At only 2 years in, didn’t you have worries that you might not be able to do it, even if it was your turn?
Uchida: But, at this company, you're put in charge of things right away from your first year. I also was included in Mario games right from my first year. Like, "Eh, there’s no training or anything?" Just right away, "Ok, go make it" (lol).
Ninomiya: You don’t have the time to even feel any pressure.
Uchida: You don’t have time to think, "what do I do," you just think, "I have to make it."
Kondo: Because they hire people who look like they're ready to get started immediately.
Ninomiya: Why did you come to Nintendo, Uchida-san?
Uchida: I learned about the field of interactive music in college, and thought I wanted to do that. When you hear the terms interactive music or interactive art, they can sound lofty and hard to approach. But, when it comes to games, it actually can feel quite close and familiar. And I wanted to make things that people could play and enjoy, so I thought games would be a perfectly fine way to do that.
Ninomiya: Eh~. I see.
Uchida: I normally am in charge of the sound effects, but this "New Super Mario Brothers Wii" was the first time I was also responsible for the main sound programming as well. It's such a popular franchise that I did feel quite a lot of pressure.
Ninomiya: You couldn’t really change it too much from what Mario has always been either.
Uchida: That's true. So deciding what things to leave and what things to change was what troubled me the most. Because long time players of Mario will think, "When he enters a pipe, it has to be this sound" or "It has to play this melody when he gets a 1-up mushroom."
Ninomiya: That's true, when you play it, you feel like, "Yes, here it is!"
Uchida: No matter what, when you try to put in a new thing that hasn't been there before, you do waver over it. You wouldn't worry too much about putting new things in a completely new title, but no matter what, you think about putting new things in a title that's been loved for a long time. So, every so often I wind up going to Kondo and asking him things. Like, "What feelings were you conveying in the sounds with that part there?"
Kondo: But, putting sounds into words is quite difficult.
Ninomiya: In the first place, how long did it take you to make the music for the first "Super Mario?"
Kondo: Mario was pretty short. Maybe about 6 months. Back then, there wasn’t as much volume to make.
Ninomiya: But even so, you made the music to "Super Mario," music that anyone would recognize. Do you ever brag about that when you've had a little too much to drink? Like, "That was me, who made that" (lol).
Kondo: No, I don’t (lol).
Ninomiya: Really!? Music that's permeated so much across generations and different countries, but to you it's just another song that’s part of your own history?
Kondo: Pretty much. When I made it back then I never thought it would spread as much as it has. Though now, I do think, "Ah, it’s become this popular."
Ninomiya: By the way, when you first made the music, you played the game with no sound at all and then just imagined the sounds?
Kondo: Yes. When you play the game, you can get a sense for the rhythm of the characters movements, right? First I think of that rhythm for the music, then the bass. Then, while playing the rhythm and the bass, I play on the piano to come up with a melody that fits with them. But, I can’t do it that well here at work. Especially for things like the main BGM. So, I'll go home and while I'm sitting the bath or something, the melody will come floating into my head.
Ninomiya: What do you do with that? Do you go and play the piano naked?
Kondo: No no (lol), I just remember it, and if I still remember it the next day, then it's a good song.
Ninomiya: I see! In "Super Mario," which part of the game was the music finished for first?
Kondo: The first one was for the underwater parts. It was the easiest to picture, and was a nice slow, waltz-type song. It was finished in no time.
Ninomiya: What was the last one to be done?
Kondo: That was, not surprisingly, the ending song. Because in making the game, the ending is the last part that gets made.
Ninomiya: Ah. So then, you were able to progress through it all without making too many large changes.
Kondo: Yes. But, the main song I made for the aboveground parts was rejected. When I first saw the main screen for "Super Mario," with its green grass and blue skies, it was unlike any other game I'd seen before, so I made a relaxed song, like you were jogging through a field that looked like that. But then I was told, "This doesn’t quite fit with the game." So then I made a song that was a bit more rhythmical and that's the song we have today.
Ninomiya: Oh, then for you, Kondo-San, it's actually your second song.
Kondo: Yes.
Ninomiya: By the way, who was the person that rejected your song?
Kondo: Miyamoto (lol). But, a few other people had told me, "This song sounds weird" too.
Ninomiya: But, how did it feel, to be told, "Eh? This doesn’t really fit, does it?" about a song that you worked so hard on? Did you try to argue against that?
Kondo: I don’t really remember many of my things getting rejected. Because I usually only play the songs that I think are it, for other people. So, I don’t really remember any of the other songs besides that aboveground one getting rejected.
Ninomiya: That's amazing.
Kondo: It’s because to make one song, I make many songs through trial and error on my own.
Ninomiya: What about you, Uchida-san? If something of yours is rejected, do you sometimes feel like, "They dont get it~" at all?
Uchida: Everyone says things in a nice way. It goes both ways, but it's because we all want to feel good about working here.
Ninomiya: It’s because you all have such composure/calm.
Uchida: That's why, I think our atmosphere is good. It feels like everyone respects each other.
Ninomiya: That must be the Nintendo spirit after all. That's so nice~! Also, I really get this sense too, but with tv, music, and movies, in any of those industries, people become legends only after they pass away. But, in the world of games, there are still this many people around who were the pioneers of the industry. Uchida-san, tell me honestly, doesn’t that make it hard for you?
Uchida: (lol).
Ninomiya: Though I'm sure it's hard for you to say it (lol).
Kondo: Like, "Hurry up and retire already!" (lol).
Ninomiya: (lol). There are still so many legends actively working here.
Uchida: Yes. That's true.
Ninomiya: Perhaps for you Uchida-san, it seems completely normal, but from my perspective, it's very special/unique.
Uchida: That's true. But, working on Mario this time, I was able to study all kinds of things with Kondo, like the way his music notes for the sound effects are, and I really learned a lot.
Ninomiya: I'm sure!
Uchida: I made a lot of discoveries, like this is how he made the music. So, for him to be here now, I'm.... (lol)
Ninomiya: You're thankful he's here (lol). But of course you are. You want to inherit all that you can from him while you can after all.
Uchida: Yes.
Kondo: Well, but for me, I'd rather you put in more and more fun, new ideas, than just inherit from me. I'm not all that set on what I originally made.
Ninomiya: You just want Mario to continue to evolve by adding the new things.
Kondo: Yes. If Mario becomes even more fun, then I think it's ok.
Ninomiya: I see what you're saying. But, that's tough for you, Uchida-san.
Uchida: It’s hard (lol).
Ninomiya: Ever since I was in high school, I've wanted to write music for video games. I often used to come home, and if I had time, I would decide on a scenario in a game and write the music for it. So, I really admire the people who make the music for video games. Um, Kondo-san, this might be weird to ask, but do you ever get asked, "Here, play it for us!" at like school reunions or something?
Kondo: Hmmm... well there’s not usually a keyboard or anything there.
Ninomiya: Oh, so would you play it if there was one?
Kondo: I wonder.
Ninomiya: There just happens to be a keyboard over there, you know (lol).
Kondo: I'll play it.
Ninomiya: Eh, really! Yay~!
In answer to Ninomiya’s very leading suggestion, Kondo-san played the "Super Mario" theme song for them live. At the unexpected event right at the end, everyone, and of course Ninomiya also, gave him a big round of applause!
Ninomiya: Uwa, that's how it sounds live. I never thought I'd get to hear it played live.
Kondo: It’s not that big a deal (lol).
Ninomiya: No way, that was unbelievable! Today was the happiest day!
They said goodbye to the two, and left the sound room. And then, they headed to Kyoto Station. It was evening. The blue sky was still beautifully sparkling, as if Ninomiya’s feelings at the end of this special day were being projected onto it. And after today, looking at the Nintendo building standing there dignified, it felt like it had become a very close and familiar presence now.
"Now, looking back on it, the simple look of the company expresses everything. Even though it feels like they're always two or three steps ahead of everyone else, their uniforms and all were plain and simple. But, no one was dissatisfied or sour about that. That's probably because everyone at Nintendo is so interesting/unique themselves. Also, it was really new/fresh to hear them think of games as tools. That they want people to use for a long time. But that's why they become loved for so long. They really haven't changed as a company since the era when they made playing cards and hanafuda cards. They're all nothing more than tools meant to make daily life more fun. They’re amazing, after all. They're relaxed in just the right way. Even Mario was a carpenter at first and then for the next one he was a plumber. He kind of changes jobs a lot. So, he's actually surprisingly not as determined/brave as we all think (lol). It’s just awesome that even so he's a character that's loved the world over (lol)."
That's it for the Nintendo part! Next will be Studio Ghibli, here!
Masterpost is here.