other last update
if barron can put conversations with 13 year old girls asking him questions in his livejournal, i can put mike in mine.
HLimitless: nobody is important, nobody is special, nothing anyone ever does will ever be special or important; only life matters. Life is everywhere and eternal, and the extent to which we participate is the extent to which we live. Every moment wasted is a failure, and every meaningful goal that will ever be achieved shines with the infinite light of life and heaven and the cosmos. And YOU have witnessed a revelation! Spontaneous philosophy, indeed!
ScubaDave828: interesting
ScubaDave828: makes you wonder why people make unrealistic dreams for themselves and then waste their life
HLimitless: well it's not easy to find meaning
HLimitless: especially when nobody else is looking
HLimitless: I don't really hate people, I decided. I love people
ScubaDave828: depends on the people
ScubaDave828: loving certain people could mean loving ignorance
ScubaDave828: well.. what exactly do you mean by love?
HLimitless: I'm going to try not to use any generalities here
HLimitless: shit, that was a really good question
HLimitless: it calls into doubt my whole "love everyone" thing
ScubaDave828: tons of people say it. Kurt Cobain said it constantly.
HLimitless: I suppose love is apprecitation and respect. ANd I do not appreciate and respect everyone. But that doesn't mean just because a person is hopeless and ignorant that I don't love that person
ScubaDave828: even if they do you harm?
HLimitless: ha, that's why I like having you to bounce ideas off of, you don't let me get full of myself
HLimitless: I was gonna say "yes even if they do me harm" but I thought of an example that occured earlier today, and a few other now, where I could say I loved a person and then felt wronged or insulted, and there was no love
HLimitless: I suppose my love was more of a mourning. I pitied people. And pity ain't no love
ScubaDave828: haha
ScubaDave828: i pity the fool
ScubaDave828: that makes sense. Love is just so abstract a term i'm sick of hearing it used. Most people can't even define it.
HLimitless: Well we all talk without completely knowing what w're saying. Everyone, all the time
HLimitless: I mean, even life is a big mystery, but wel all do it
HLimitless: *we
ScubaDave828: it's true
ScubaDave828: you always have to ask 'why', and look for the deeper meaning in things instead of generalizing, as you've said.
HLimitless: and in my first message, what I referred to as "life," that'd be the deepest meaning. And the trick to living is knowing something, anything, about that deepest meaning
HLimitless: and then acting on it
HLimitless: oooo I'm sizzling
ScubaDave828: ya, another very abstract concept there.
HLimitless: all philosophy is abstract. If there was anyone who could demonstrate practically that he had all the answers, or any answer, then everyone would believe that person and there'd be no mystery anymore
ScubaDave828: it's almost as if we like having mystery. We enjoy trying to overcome oblivion.
HLimitless: yeah, I think that's true. Some people do anyway
HLimitless: I don't know if we have any choice in the matter though. I think some things just can't be known, but we have to try to know them anyway, because our lives would be meaningless otherwise
ScubaDave828: You're right, the matter is here and there's nothing we can do. I was gonna say our lives are pretty meaningless anyways, but i actually think that meaning is something you create for yourself.
HLimitless: yeah, I don't even allow meaninglessness or nihilism to be an option for me. If life was meaningless I'd rather not do it
ScubaDave828: the only reason humans want to find meaning is because we're capable of it, and we try to challenge ourselves because otherwise we'd be letting ourselves down by not utilizing our abilities to their extent.
ScubaDave828: yeah, anyone with a meaningless life should either find meaning or suck a tailpipe
HLimitless: You think we gained the capability to find meaning and then attempted to create it? Or did meaning demand a creature who could find it?
HLimitless: lemme write that again with less vague pronouns
HLimitless: You think we gained the capability to find meaning and then attempted to create meaning for ourselves? Or did meaning create a creature who could find meaning?
ScubaDave828: oooooooh, this is another one of those "does the sickness make the genius or the genius make the sickness" questions. You're good at those.
HLimitless: well it's an important question
ScubaDave828: hmm... well. i think that meaning is capable because we're capable of obtaining it. But would it exist if we were not able to comprehend it? Ahhh... let me think.
HLimitless: and the answer is a powerful one: if meaning came first and then an animal which could pursue meaning, then we have a definite purpose to our lives. Otherwise, purpose is something we create to occupy ourselves and our abilities
ScubaDave828: I think that meaning came first. I think that there's also something beyond meaning that current evolution has not been able to obtain yet. To live a satisfying life, on an instinct level you need physical satisfaction, on an intellectual level you need meaning, and on a spiritual, metphysical level you need something that we have not found yet.
ScubaDave828: and we try to utilize our intelligence to find meaning on the spiritual level, but that won't be happening.
HLimitless: I like that
HLimitless: we're a work in progress, then
ScubaDave828: basically
HLimitless: what do you think will happen when a being exists that can find spiritual satisfaction?
ScubaDave828: we'll find a new level that we'll need to find meaning for maybe.
ScubaDave828: i doubt the process of satisfaction will ever cease.
ScubaDave828: what do you think?
HLimitless: well maybe spiritual satisfaction is the end, then. I don't know either, haha, nobody does
HLimitless: we're all just trying to sort this shit out
ScubaDave828: you bet. We're all cosmic fucking secretaries.
HLimitless: hmm, I think there's a need for spiritual and metaphysical satisfaction too, but I don't think it can ever be completely satisfied
HLimitless: I think humanity is motly defined by its dissatisfaction
HLimitless: *mostly
ScubaDave828: those are agent smith's words in the matrix when he's talking to a bound morpheus
HLimitless: haha, you'd be surprised how many philosophical discussions come back to The Matrix
HLimitless: I didn't even realize what I was saying
ScubaDave828: on the same thought that physical satisfaction and intellectual satisfaction will never be eternally reached.
HLimitless: yeah, exactly
ScubaDave828: i see
ScubaDave828: the matrix is the shit
HLimitless: and I think lately, the past 50 or 500 or 2000 years or maybe longer, people have been spiritually malnourished
HLimitless: and that's where meaninglessness and hence nihilistic belief in nothing comes from
ScubaDave828: say meaning is out there, then how does one create it? Or does that mean that it's abundant and that you can find it in anything, and so it's as if you 'create' it?
HLimitless: I wouldn't say it's created at all. I think we stuble upon it, or set out to find it. I think meaning, life, god, whatever, I'd say it's prior; and our physical existence and our actions are secondary.
ScubaDave828: hence the 'quest for truth' and not the 'creation of'
HLimitless: yeah
HLimitless: what are synonyms for "created"? "Fabricated," or "synthetic"
HLimitless: not "true"
ScubaDave828: truuuuue
ScubaDave828: that's basically common sense
ScubaDave828: which is good to see us questioning everything
HLimitless: the truth is pretty obvious a lot of the time. That's why it's misleading, man
ScubaDave828: in that sense, intelligence can mislead people by complicating things.
ScubaDave828: is it really a virtue?
HLimitless: I think so. At least we know why we believe truth is prior to creation. Or even what that really means
HLimitless: creation = what we create
ScubaDave828: in that case, what i don't like about the bible is that they portray God as just some guy. No man can be God though, God is an omnipotent being, so it's caused people to get egos and crack and think they're Jesus. God did not create man, because only animals can create.
ScubaDave828: we can't be a creation
HLimitless: Yeah that sounds good. We're a manifestation
ScubaDave828: yes!
HLimitless: think about being creative now. What are we really creating?
ScubaDave828: i really don't believe we're creating anything then. Maybe creation is manifestation.
HLimitless: yes yes yes I agreeeeee and we can create something that is in line with truth or god or whatever, or something which is completely seperate from truth, and thus... meaningless
ScubaDave828: if we create something that is in line with truth and god, then that would be manifestation. but something seperate from truth and meaningless, maybe that's creation.
ScubaDave828: we created something meaningless out of something meaningful.
HLimitless: well it doesn't really make sense that way. If we're manifestations of truth, and what we do is a manifestation of us, then everything we do, even meaningless stuff, is also a manifestation of truth
ScubaDave828: true
ScubaDave828: so that wouldn't make sense
HLimitless: maybe it does
HLimitless: I think a manifestation of truth can itself be untrue
HLimitless: otherwise we couldn't lie
ScubaDave828: i think that anything that isn't consistent with truth is something that we created, and if it weren't for us everything would be pure truth.
ScubaDave828: so maybe we're not a manifestation of truth. Maybe we're a creation--meaningless, not consistent with truth.
HLimitless: shit man, very good point
HLimitless: you might be taking it too far though. Did you do that on purpose? It seems like you did, haha
ScubaDave828: Ya, i was going for that... but how far is too far?
HLimitless: I don't know. Maybe it's like too lines diverting by a certin angle. The farther you take it, the more you notice the seperation. And the error is fundamental
HLimitless: considering I've still gotta shoot up and take my anti-swelling medicine, and eat, and also considering that I have brain fatigue, I'm gonna call it quits for the night
HLimitless: any last words on the subject?
ScubaDave828: well, i like that last comment you made. It's deep about being deep.
ScubaDave828: which is consistent with what we started out with of 'don't generalize, question everything'
HLimitless: analogy is a great way to communicate. All the best philosophy has at least a little
HLimitless: especially Schopenhaur
ScubaDave828: that's a great analogy, did you just come up with it?
HLimitless: yeah man, as original as a thought can be
ScubaDave828: well man, i'll catch you later, i've got to study for two finals.
ScubaDave828: i think i'm the last person with finals out of everyone.
HLimitless: I think so too, sucks a lot
HLimitless: hope this conversation only served to warm up your brain, rather than tire it out
HLimitless: cuz I'd feel bad if you did poorly on your finals because of a boastful IM
ScubaDave828: haha, don't worry, my final isn't until thursday
HLimitless: ahh rock on
HLimitless: alright man catch you later
ScubaDave828: but i was pretty tired out before this, so don't worry about it. haven't slept in two nights.
ScubaDave828: peace
HLimitless signed off at 11:12:31 PM.
HLimitless: nobody is important, nobody is special, nothing anyone ever does will ever be special or important; only life matters. Life is everywhere and eternal, and the extent to which we participate is the extent to which we live. Every moment wasted is a failure, and every meaningful goal that will ever be achieved shines with the infinite light of life and heaven and the cosmos. And YOU have witnessed a revelation! Spontaneous philosophy, indeed!
ScubaDave828: interesting
ScubaDave828: makes you wonder why people make unrealistic dreams for themselves and then waste their life
HLimitless: well it's not easy to find meaning
HLimitless: especially when nobody else is looking
HLimitless: I don't really hate people, I decided. I love people
ScubaDave828: depends on the people
ScubaDave828: loving certain people could mean loving ignorance
ScubaDave828: well.. what exactly do you mean by love?
HLimitless: I'm going to try not to use any generalities here
HLimitless: shit, that was a really good question
HLimitless: it calls into doubt my whole "love everyone" thing
ScubaDave828: tons of people say it. Kurt Cobain said it constantly.
HLimitless: I suppose love is apprecitation and respect. ANd I do not appreciate and respect everyone. But that doesn't mean just because a person is hopeless and ignorant that I don't love that person
ScubaDave828: even if they do you harm?
HLimitless: ha, that's why I like having you to bounce ideas off of, you don't let me get full of myself
HLimitless: I was gonna say "yes even if they do me harm" but I thought of an example that occured earlier today, and a few other now, where I could say I loved a person and then felt wronged or insulted, and there was no love
HLimitless: I suppose my love was more of a mourning. I pitied people. And pity ain't no love
ScubaDave828: haha
ScubaDave828: i pity the fool
ScubaDave828: that makes sense. Love is just so abstract a term i'm sick of hearing it used. Most people can't even define it.
HLimitless: Well we all talk without completely knowing what w're saying. Everyone, all the time
HLimitless: I mean, even life is a big mystery, but wel all do it
HLimitless: *we
ScubaDave828: it's true
ScubaDave828: you always have to ask 'why', and look for the deeper meaning in things instead of generalizing, as you've said.
HLimitless: and in my first message, what I referred to as "life," that'd be the deepest meaning. And the trick to living is knowing something, anything, about that deepest meaning
HLimitless: and then acting on it
HLimitless: oooo I'm sizzling
ScubaDave828: ya, another very abstract concept there.
HLimitless: all philosophy is abstract. If there was anyone who could demonstrate practically that he had all the answers, or any answer, then everyone would believe that person and there'd be no mystery anymore
ScubaDave828: it's almost as if we like having mystery. We enjoy trying to overcome oblivion.
HLimitless: yeah, I think that's true. Some people do anyway
HLimitless: I don't know if we have any choice in the matter though. I think some things just can't be known, but we have to try to know them anyway, because our lives would be meaningless otherwise
ScubaDave828: You're right, the matter is here and there's nothing we can do. I was gonna say our lives are pretty meaningless anyways, but i actually think that meaning is something you create for yourself.
HLimitless: yeah, I don't even allow meaninglessness or nihilism to be an option for me. If life was meaningless I'd rather not do it
ScubaDave828: the only reason humans want to find meaning is because we're capable of it, and we try to challenge ourselves because otherwise we'd be letting ourselves down by not utilizing our abilities to their extent.
ScubaDave828: yeah, anyone with a meaningless life should either find meaning or suck a tailpipe
HLimitless: You think we gained the capability to find meaning and then attempted to create it? Or did meaning demand a creature who could find it?
HLimitless: lemme write that again with less vague pronouns
HLimitless: You think we gained the capability to find meaning and then attempted to create meaning for ourselves? Or did meaning create a creature who could find meaning?
ScubaDave828: oooooooh, this is another one of those "does the sickness make the genius or the genius make the sickness" questions. You're good at those.
HLimitless: well it's an important question
ScubaDave828: hmm... well. i think that meaning is capable because we're capable of obtaining it. But would it exist if we were not able to comprehend it? Ahhh... let me think.
HLimitless: and the answer is a powerful one: if meaning came first and then an animal which could pursue meaning, then we have a definite purpose to our lives. Otherwise, purpose is something we create to occupy ourselves and our abilities
ScubaDave828: I think that meaning came first. I think that there's also something beyond meaning that current evolution has not been able to obtain yet. To live a satisfying life, on an instinct level you need physical satisfaction, on an intellectual level you need meaning, and on a spiritual, metphysical level you need something that we have not found yet.
ScubaDave828: and we try to utilize our intelligence to find meaning on the spiritual level, but that won't be happening.
HLimitless: I like that
HLimitless: we're a work in progress, then
ScubaDave828: basically
HLimitless: what do you think will happen when a being exists that can find spiritual satisfaction?
ScubaDave828: we'll find a new level that we'll need to find meaning for maybe.
ScubaDave828: i doubt the process of satisfaction will ever cease.
ScubaDave828: what do you think?
HLimitless: well maybe spiritual satisfaction is the end, then. I don't know either, haha, nobody does
HLimitless: we're all just trying to sort this shit out
ScubaDave828: you bet. We're all cosmic fucking secretaries.
HLimitless: hmm, I think there's a need for spiritual and metaphysical satisfaction too, but I don't think it can ever be completely satisfied
HLimitless: I think humanity is motly defined by its dissatisfaction
HLimitless: *mostly
ScubaDave828: those are agent smith's words in the matrix when he's talking to a bound morpheus
HLimitless: haha, you'd be surprised how many philosophical discussions come back to The Matrix
HLimitless: I didn't even realize what I was saying
ScubaDave828: on the same thought that physical satisfaction and intellectual satisfaction will never be eternally reached.
HLimitless: yeah, exactly
ScubaDave828: i see
ScubaDave828: the matrix is the shit
HLimitless: and I think lately, the past 50 or 500 or 2000 years or maybe longer, people have been spiritually malnourished
HLimitless: and that's where meaninglessness and hence nihilistic belief in nothing comes from
ScubaDave828: say meaning is out there, then how does one create it? Or does that mean that it's abundant and that you can find it in anything, and so it's as if you 'create' it?
HLimitless: I wouldn't say it's created at all. I think we stuble upon it, or set out to find it. I think meaning, life, god, whatever, I'd say it's prior; and our physical existence and our actions are secondary.
ScubaDave828: hence the 'quest for truth' and not the 'creation of'
HLimitless: yeah
HLimitless: what are synonyms for "created"? "Fabricated," or "synthetic"
HLimitless: not "true"
ScubaDave828: truuuuue
ScubaDave828: that's basically common sense
ScubaDave828: which is good to see us questioning everything
HLimitless: the truth is pretty obvious a lot of the time. That's why it's misleading, man
ScubaDave828: in that sense, intelligence can mislead people by complicating things.
ScubaDave828: is it really a virtue?
HLimitless: I think so. At least we know why we believe truth is prior to creation. Or even what that really means
HLimitless: creation = what we create
ScubaDave828: in that case, what i don't like about the bible is that they portray God as just some guy. No man can be God though, God is an omnipotent being, so it's caused people to get egos and crack and think they're Jesus. God did not create man, because only animals can create.
ScubaDave828: we can't be a creation
HLimitless: Yeah that sounds good. We're a manifestation
ScubaDave828: yes!
HLimitless: think about being creative now. What are we really creating?
ScubaDave828: i really don't believe we're creating anything then. Maybe creation is manifestation.
HLimitless: yes yes yes I agreeeeee and we can create something that is in line with truth or god or whatever, or something which is completely seperate from truth, and thus... meaningless
ScubaDave828: if we create something that is in line with truth and god, then that would be manifestation. but something seperate from truth and meaningless, maybe that's creation.
ScubaDave828: we created something meaningless out of something meaningful.
HLimitless: well it doesn't really make sense that way. If we're manifestations of truth, and what we do is a manifestation of us, then everything we do, even meaningless stuff, is also a manifestation of truth
ScubaDave828: true
ScubaDave828: so that wouldn't make sense
HLimitless: maybe it does
HLimitless: I think a manifestation of truth can itself be untrue
HLimitless: otherwise we couldn't lie
ScubaDave828: i think that anything that isn't consistent with truth is something that we created, and if it weren't for us everything would be pure truth.
ScubaDave828: so maybe we're not a manifestation of truth. Maybe we're a creation--meaningless, not consistent with truth.
HLimitless: shit man, very good point
HLimitless: you might be taking it too far though. Did you do that on purpose? It seems like you did, haha
ScubaDave828: Ya, i was going for that... but how far is too far?
HLimitless: I don't know. Maybe it's like too lines diverting by a certin angle. The farther you take it, the more you notice the seperation. And the error is fundamental
HLimitless: considering I've still gotta shoot up and take my anti-swelling medicine, and eat, and also considering that I have brain fatigue, I'm gonna call it quits for the night
HLimitless: any last words on the subject?
ScubaDave828: well, i like that last comment you made. It's deep about being deep.
ScubaDave828: which is consistent with what we started out with of 'don't generalize, question everything'
HLimitless: analogy is a great way to communicate. All the best philosophy has at least a little
HLimitless: especially Schopenhaur
ScubaDave828: that's a great analogy, did you just come up with it?
HLimitless: yeah man, as original as a thought can be
ScubaDave828: well man, i'll catch you later, i've got to study for two finals.
ScubaDave828: i think i'm the last person with finals out of everyone.
HLimitless: I think so too, sucks a lot
HLimitless: hope this conversation only served to warm up your brain, rather than tire it out
HLimitless: cuz I'd feel bad if you did poorly on your finals because of a boastful IM
ScubaDave828: haha, don't worry, my final isn't until thursday
HLimitless: ahh rock on
HLimitless: alright man catch you later
ScubaDave828: but i was pretty tired out before this, so don't worry about it. haven't slept in two nights.
ScubaDave828: peace
HLimitless signed off at 11:12:31 PM.