Rudeness

[deonon]

Any one who knows me knows that I value politeness (in its real sense) as one of the virtues of civilisation. After all, it has been proposed that having to work through the complicated web of social interactions is one of the (species guided) reasons our brains got so big (and not the other way around

Comments

[malinari86]

Quite frankly, for the most part I agree with what you Deon and James are saying. I think that society is getting ruder, a thing that my mother laments on a nearly daily basis. However, you might want to consider the greater problem...

You want politeness in society? I would personally love to see more, but parents are avoiding that responsibility, foisting it off to teachers. It is not the job of a teacher to instill manners in a child. Sure, they can reinforce them, but they absolutely cannot teach them in the first place.

James, I also think that you are wrong about one thing...you think that rich people have less manners? The people with the best manners I know are vastly more wealthy than I will ever be and she is an incredibly attractive woman...I had lunch with her a while ago and she sent me a thank oyu e-mail afterwards. She had lunch with my mother the week later and wrote her a thank you note. I have found through bitter experience that it is the so called "Lower Socio-Economic Class" that has the worse manners. There is a woeful lack of good, affordable education in Australia and this has contributed, but also, for the most part these people are not brought up to have a sense of awareness of the people around them. They are for the most part disenfranchised, disempowered and this cannot help but engender a certain level of resentment which manifests as rudeness.

James, Deon, Jyan...I gather that you think I am rude. You are indeed welcome to that opinion depending on what you define as rudeness. Your definition is sadly a little too wide that the shotgun effect will not doubt to insult someone...which is in itself rude.

The main thing with regards to manners is, knowing how and when to use them. At a convention when people are overexcited and having a good time manners will slip to a certain extent but I draw your attention Deon to the fact that I made sure that I thanked you personally for your incredible effort at the con. If I had played any games, I would have thanked the GMs and also anyone I played with.

I am not going to tone myself down when I am having a good time and talking crap with people who I consder friends, but I always remember to thank people, say excuse me, ask politely for assistance etc and mean it too.

[sam_sonite]

I don't think it's fair to say that the wealthy have better manners than other people lower down on the socio-economic scale. Otherwise you wouldn't hear the words 'New Money' used as a derogatory way to describe someone.

'New Money' describes someone who is considered rude by the 'traditional rules' of the class they have earned their way into. I think it's this sense of tradition that has more to do with whether someone is polite, than their socio-economic class. Traditionally ALL classes had codes of behaviour, which they made a point of teaching children.

I'm not sure it's fair to blame it ALL on parents. Now we have all these 'experts' diagnosing everyone's children with ADD and ADHD. I wouldn't be surprised if this has given the false impression to parents that their children's Seratonin levels have more do to with how they behave, than hands-on instruction on manners. To these people a badly behaved child is one whose dosage must be wrong. Parents are no longer deemed to be the experts on their own children, and I think this has severely compromised the way parents relate to them.

I'll agree it's not really fair to link attractiveness to manners. Yes a woman who is more attractive can seem to get away with more, but behind her back everyone will be talking about what a bitch she is. If she is rude enough she will not have any REAL friends who care about her, which to me doesn't sound like 'getting away with it.'

[heapha]

I have to say as someone who has ADHD I find that comment somewhat rude. Am I going to let it get to me - NAH, what good would that do.

But I will explain this, regardless of what some doctor says about seratonum levels etc it is still the PARENTS responsibility to make sure that a child grows up to be well adjusted and well mannered. It is NOT a doctors fault that a child is misbehaving if the parents sit idley by and watch the show sprouting untruths like “it isn’t johnnys fault he punched suzie, cause Johnny has ADD”

Regardless of the impairment it is a parents responsibility to raise a child to fit into society. Sometimes it is easier with a completely “normal” child, other times it is harder when you have a child with a disability of any sort, but the ADD kids parents should stop and think how hard it is to raise a child with severe autism or psychophrenia.

My mother raised 4 children 3 of which had cronic ADD, one of which had the violent strand. That didn’t excuse a please or a thank you being missed. I think I have OK manners - at least I know what the correct thing is.

As Deonen said he was upset because this person tried to excuse her rudeness behind a non heterosexual sexuality, trying to excuse it because of ADD is just as stupid.

In the end the only excuse for being rude is because you were rude either by accident or on purpose there has to be consequences for those actions.

[malinari86]

Heaph, the same thing with depression...it is stil not an excuse to be a c*nt. If I am right, Deon is saying that people should be more aware of how their actions make the people around them feel. Which I think is a commendable thought if sometimes a little hard to manage in a larger social context.

[sam_sonite]

My comment was not intended to be offensive.

Look at it this way fifty years ago where there all these parents complaining about their children being unable to sit still and being hyperactive? If there were, don't you think we would have heard of it? That there would still be issues of Good Housekeeping and similar types of magazines collecting dust in libraries with articles about how to address this issue.

I find it highly suspicious that less than a couple of decades after experts 'discovered' something, that almost everyone has it. Drugs such as Ridalin are made by Pharmaceutical companies, the same ones who spend more on marketing than Research and Development. It is in their interests for as many people to think they have ADD as possible. Much of the information that doctors have comes from these same companies.

Do you REALLY think it's possible that every single person being medicated for ADD or ADHD REALLY has it? If you read up on how powerful the Placebo effect is, it would make you doubt even more. Our bodies are amazing at tricking ourselves into feeling and doing better.

I grew up in NYC where Psychology has a much stronger grip over the way people think than in Australia. I know the scenario I presented seemed implausible and rude to you, but it is taken from real-life. I have actually seen parents say that.

My original point wasn't so much about ADD, but this culture of experts on parenting which has developed that encompasses so many areas. The ones who tell you that if you potty train your kid the wrong way they could be traumatised for life. All these experts with their books and the degrees which let them put fancy looking acronyms after their names, has driven a wedge between children and parents.

Is it really worth being insistent on manners, if as a mother you make your children distrust women for life?

[heapha]

Sorry I am at work so this may seem blunt - please don’t’ take offece I am just rushing

I realized you didn’t mean offence and thus it is why I noted that whilst it was slightly offencive I wasn’t going to take any offence from it into the rest of my life

Yes ADD has existed since the dawn of time - 50 years ago you were sent ot the army at 16 to fix the issue.

The medicating of ADD is closely monitored by the government - they don’t give speed to just anybody.

I agree with you on the “parenting experts” being wankers. Like the fact that smacking your kid can be deemed child abuse.
SOME KIDS NEED A GOOD WACK OCCASIONALLY

[sim_james]

James, I also think that you are wrong about one thing...you think that rich people have less manners?

I’m speaking purely from anecdotal evidence; I don’t imagine that my experiences form some kind of general rule.

James, Deon, Jyan...I gather that you think I am rude. You are indeed welcome to that opinion depending on what you define as rudeness. Your definition is sadly a little too wide that the shotgun effect will not doubt to insult someone...which is in itself rude.

I’m not going to speak for my friends (and really Kane, you know better than to assume that we’d all have the same views!) but my opinion of you personally is rather more complicated than that. You probably shouldn’t worry about what I think of you unless you place a high value on my opinion; I have my biases as does everyone.
   

[malinari86]

James, that is a very fair comment. Whatever your opinion of me is, I don't put that high a value on it. I am comfortable enough in who I am and what I am that it would not bother me. However, If you find my presence distasteful, I would rather know so that I can a) avoid bothering you as I actually think you are a pretty cool guy and would not want to bother you and b) so that I know where I stand with regards to ding things like playing Clix with you at cons, playing in your con games etc.

Just by way of clarification, I was not assuming that you have the same opinions of me...it was more three separate comments, one to each of the people mentioned bundled into one paragraph. With reagrds to Jyan and Dion I honestly do not have any emotional reaction to what they think of me. They don not affect my life in any meaningful way (that being said, that wsa not an attack, there is no intent behind it other than clarification).

[sim_james]

   I don’t think you have anything to worry about. I’m sure you realise that I don’t actively avoid you like I do to some people.   ;)

If you’re concerned then you’d be better off asking me in person or talking to someone who knows me well.
   

[deonon]

Actually, Kane, this post wasn't directed at you. I thought you were amazingly polite over the entire convention, and I was actually using you (odd as it seems) as a model of positive behaviour in my thoughts as opposed to the negative behaviour of others.

My post was based on the experience I had of a very few (ie less than five) people who over the last few con have demonstrated rudeness that seems to run contary to the spirit of conventions.

[malinari86]

Forgive me Dion, I sometimes assume that people consider me rude becuase I can be so dismissive at times. Thanks for the heads up. I do find it easier to be polite when I am less depressed.