Actually we do see Albus performing Legilimency on Harry twice (at least). In COS ch12, when he asks Harry if he had anything to say - I'm pretty sure he intended to elicit Harry's stream-of-consciousness thoughts, and he did glimpse them. (The goal was to know whether Harry's recently revealed ability as Parselmouth had anything to do with releasing the basilisk.) The second time was in GOF ch17, when he questions Harry about putting his name in the goblet of fire. (As for Order members - how many interactions do we see between Albus and Order members other than Severus
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Re: Legilmenzing Harry - I didn't count him because he wasn't an actual Order member, not to mention that the Order wasn't even around in bk2 or bk4
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Using Legilimencyterri_testingJune 25 2014, 23:01:27 UTC
You're all overlooking something. It's not the case that Dumble's only choices were to use Legilimency surreptitiously and hope it wasn't noticed, or not use it at all
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Re: Using LegilimencyhwylaJune 26 2014, 00:01:10 UTC
Yes - this makes much more sense. However, I do think you are correct that James and/or Sirius (in VW1) might take offense about being asked or even about their friends being asked. It isn't as if when Albus suggested Sirius wouldn't be a good SK that James responded 'why not check him out to be sure', but just that he knew Sirius would never betray him.
There is also the possibility that James/Sirius (and other Order members) had never even heard of legilimency at that point in time.
One thing that must be considered is that several of the 'old' Order members rejoin and do not immediately demand everyone be legilmenized, even tho' it is known that there was a leak/mole in the previous Order. Not even a demand for it to be done to Sirius whom they all thought was the spy. They just accept that he is innocent without proof?
Of course, we have no idea whether or not Albus DID take a look into Sirius' mind while he had him alone in Flitwick's office before he had Harry and Hermione rescue him.
Re: Using LegilimencysunnyskywalkerJuly 2 2014, 01:47:57 UTC
I guess it depends on how easy it would have been to manipulate James and Sirius, or at least on how easy Dumbledore thought it was.
For instance, if he was discussing the possible leak with them and maybe a few others, and instead of asking them, he lamented how he couldn't use the ancient art of Legilimency on the few unnamed persons (implied to be someone not present) he suspected. James and Sirius protest that he can just ask those people, and if they refuse, well, there's your proof! Oh no, he couldn't possibly single out people like that - showing such mistrust would irreparably damage his relationship with the ones who proved innocent and would justifiably feel that he was prejudiced against them somehow. (Not that this would necessarily be true, but he thinks it's how they would feel, and so they'd believe others would too.) Then, hopefully, one of them comes up with the idea on his own that Dumbledore should Legilimize everyone. Then no one can complain! My dear boys, I wouldn't want to subject you unnecessarily to such an
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Re: Using Legilimencyoryx_leucoryxJune 26 2014, 15:11:53 UTC
The options I find believable:
1) It never occurred to him. (Asking for permission? What's that?) 2) It didn't occur to him people would agree (because he would never have). 3) He believed he could catch the leak anyway and didn't want to alert the traitor or Voldemort that he was aware of the leak's existence.
I brought up Harry to show that Dumbles did not have a principled objection to performing Legilimency on people he considered on his side.
Albus' presence at 12GP - there is mention of people Harry saw coming in and out of 12GP during August, and it did not include Dumbles. The evening before the hearing Molly says Albus had been over the previous night. It seems that at least from the time Harry arrived at 12GP Albus only ever showed up after Harry's bedtime.
Before that - Ron said he and Hernione only saw Dumbles twice since their arrival at 12GP. Nor did he show up anytime Harry was awake during Christmas break - he sent Sirius a letter about the planned Occlumency lessons and Severus delivered the news to Harry personally.
However, this was the year Albus was specifically avoiding Harry, so there is no necessity to assume he avoided meeting Order members in the first war to the same degree. For all we know, when the trio wasn't around Dumbles was always having chats with Dedalus Diggle and the rest.
You know, if Remus had been spying in VWI I would have expected it to come up in that conversation in POA. When Sirius asked for his forgiveness - it would have made sense for Remus to say that since he actually was spying (just not in that way) he wasn't surprised that Sirius suspected him. As he did not, I think Remus realized the suspicion was not based on any evidence.
Though he is good at compartmentalizing and rationalizing, so I wonder if it could still work with the modified scenario I proposed in the comment to Hwyla, where he had only "started making contact" with the werewolf contingent in VoldWar I and had let slip a few identifying details (not names, just "my friend mentioned that they'd been talking to someone who worked at ___ and then wouldn't say why? I don't know, maybe they're involved?"). Then he could tell himself he hadn't really done anything, so it's not like it was reasonable to suspect him. Mostly he'd just had a drink with a fellow werewolf and talk about how transforming hurt but running through the forest was fun, and what's wrong with that?
From canon, before Godric's Hollow it seems the most significant contribution by Order members was the fact that Alastor and Frank arrested or killed some DEs (which they would have done anyway, in their capacity as Aurors). Beyond that, all we know is that some Order members went down fighting, so perhaps they may have injured or killed a few DEs between them all. And we know the Potters may have had 3 close encounters with Tom, but we don't know if any of that had any impact whatsoever.
That the first war was won in a way that strengthened Albus' position was more the result if luck than anything he did.
Brilliant student. Failure as a brother. Some success as researcher, though failed alchemist. Performance as teacher - unknown. Failed headmaster. Accidentally successful leader of private army.
Don't forget head of the Wizangamot and Supreme Mugwump, possibly absentee in both positions.
I really, really wonder if JKR knows that the latter title means Supreme Fence-sitter. It's an old American political term referring to someone with his 'mug' on one side of the fence and his 'wump' on the other.
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There is also the possibility that James/Sirius (and other Order members) had never even heard of legilimency at that point in time.
One thing that must be considered is that several of the 'old' Order members rejoin and do not immediately demand everyone be legilmenized, even tho' it is known that there was a leak/mole in the previous Order. Not even a demand for it to be done to Sirius whom they all thought was the spy. They just accept that he is innocent without proof?
Of course, we have no idea whether or not Albus DID take a look into Sirius' mind while he had him alone in Flitwick's office before he had Harry and Hermione rescue him.
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For instance, if he was discussing the possible leak with them and maybe a few others, and instead of asking them, he lamented how he couldn't use the ancient art of Legilimency on the few unnamed persons (implied to be someone not present) he suspected. James and Sirius protest that he can just ask those people, and if they refuse, well, there's your proof! Oh no, he couldn't possibly single out people like that - showing such mistrust would irreparably damage his relationship with the ones who proved innocent and would justifiably feel that he was prejudiced against them somehow. (Not that this would necessarily be true, but he thinks it's how they would feel, and so they'd believe others would too.) Then, hopefully, one of them comes up with the idea on his own that Dumbledore should Legilimize everyone. Then no one can complain! My dear boys, I wouldn't want to subject you unnecessarily to such an ( ... )
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1) It never occurred to him. (Asking for permission? What's that?)
2) It didn't occur to him people would agree (because he would never have).
3) He believed he could catch the leak anyway and didn't want to alert the traitor or Voldemort that he was aware of the leak's existence.
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Albus' presence at 12GP - there is mention of people Harry saw coming in and out of 12GP during August, and it did not include Dumbles. The evening before the hearing Molly says Albus had been over the previous night. It seems that at least from the time Harry arrived at 12GP Albus only ever showed up after Harry's bedtime.
Before that - Ron said he and Hernione only saw Dumbles twice since their arrival at 12GP. Nor did he show up anytime Harry was awake during Christmas break - he sent Sirius a letter about the planned Occlumency lessons and Severus delivered the news to Harry personally.
However, this was the year Albus was specifically avoiding Harry, so there is no necessity to assume he avoided meeting Order members in the first war to the same degree. For all we know, when the trio wasn't around Dumbles was always having chats with Dedalus Diggle and the rest.
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Though he is good at compartmentalizing and rationalizing, so I wonder if it could still work with the modified scenario I proposed in the comment to Hwyla, where he had only "started making contact" with the werewolf contingent in VoldWar I and had let slip a few identifying details (not names, just "my friend mentioned that they'd been talking to someone who worked at ___ and then wouldn't say why? I don't know, maybe they're involved?"). Then he could tell himself he hadn't really done anything, so it's not like it was reasonable to suspect him. Mostly he'd just had a drink with a fellow werewolf and talk about how transforming hurt but running through the forest was fun, and what's wrong with that?
Still a stretch, I admit, but maybe?
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That the first war was won in a way that strengthened Albus' position was more the result if luck than anything he did.
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Brilliant student.
Failure as a brother.
Some success as researcher, though failed alchemist.
Performance as teacher - unknown.
Failed headmaster.
Accidentally successful leader of private army.
Reply
I really, really wonder if JKR knows that the latter title means Supreme Fence-sitter. It's an old American political term referring to someone with his 'mug' on one side of the fence and his 'wump' on the other.
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