Re: Legilmenzing Harry - I didn't count him because he wasn't an actual Order member, not to mention that the Order wasn't even around in bk2 or bk4.
Good point about how little WE see between Albus and other Order members than Severus, altho' I would presume that he is there for at least a few meetings and since Harry cannot listen in I assume he loses interest in hanging around the door.
Still, not-canon that there are numerous incidents that give the opportunity for Albus to take a look - especially if the only opportunities are meetings with other Adults around who would also see him doing it.
But IF Albus is not often in the presence of Order members (except possibly group meetings) then one has to ask if that was the same duding VW1? If so, that also fives a reason why he didn't just legilmenize the Marauders to see why they felt suspect. Even outside of the meetings they were probably rarely alone and so would notice Albus staring.
The question then is whether or not they knew anything about the 'rare art' of Legilmency. Presumably, IF Remus really is a 'Defense Whiz' (not exactly proven in-canon since the other DADA teachers than Snape were so bad), then he might have known, but I doubt it was part of any of their lessons at Hogwarts.
We know Remus knows about it by bk5 since he speaks of Snape's talent with Occlumency, and he might possibly have known by bk3 since there are a few mentions of him staring intently, but we don't really know whether he knew back in VW1.
This also brings up the question of why Albus didn't legilmens Remus in bk3. He was obviously not telling Albus 'everything' and since most of what he wasn't telling had to do with Sirius you would thing that feeling that Remus was holding something back would occur to Albus.
I suppose the 'out' there is that Remus had convinced himself that telling the secrets wouldn't help, that Sirius was getting in thru ways he learned from Voldy. IF Remus is throughly convinced then presumably he not only doesn't worry over the memories that suggest otherwise (making it less obvious to Albus that he is hiding anything), but he also 'feels' sincere, as you mentioned.
Using Legilimencyterri_testingJune 25 2014, 23:01:27 UTC
You're all overlooking something. It's not the case that Dumble's only choices were to use Legilimency surreptitiously and hope it wasn't noticed, or not use it at all.
He could have asked permission of his followers and interrogated them quite legitimately, especially once there was evidence for there being a leak from within the Order.
Hell, if I were a member of a vigilante group risking death from another guerilla group and imprisonment by the government, and I trusted my leader and knew him to be a Legilimens, I'd be DEMANDING that he Legilimize me and my fellow conspirators once I thought there might be a leak (whether betrayal, carelessness, or involuntary).
It wouldn't be immoral (and probably not illegal) if it were done with full permission. And any member of the Order could freely choose not to give that permission--of course, assumptions would be made by their fellows, and maybe they'd be dumped out of the Order and Obliviated if they did refuse....
The only reason why I can think why Scummy didn't suggest that is that he was playing some double game that took precedence over protecting his followers. Either Dumbles knew (or thought he knew) the source of the leak, and wanted Tom to think he hadn't figured it out (being too noble to use Legilimency against his followers like Tom does)....
Or, just possibly, Twinkles expected someone to react to such a suggestion by taking their gobstones and going home, and it was someone Albus wanted to keep tied to him more than he wanted to keep his followers safe. (I could see James-and-Sirius as contenders for this--if you don't trust us you don't have to have us!)
Can you think of other reasons why Scummy shouldn't suggest openly Legilimizing his loyal followers? I mean, other than the fact that telling ANYONE the truth and asking permission to do ANYTHING is probably so foreign as to be actively painful to them man?
Re: Using LegilimencyhwylaJune 26 2014, 00:01:10 UTC
Yes - this makes much more sense. However, I do think you are correct that James and/or Sirius (in VW1) might take offense about being asked or even about their friends being asked. It isn't as if when Albus suggested Sirius wouldn't be a good SK that James responded 'why not check him out to be sure', but just that he knew Sirius would never betray him.
There is also the possibility that James/Sirius (and other Order members) had never even heard of legilimency at that point in time.
One thing that must be considered is that several of the 'old' Order members rejoin and do not immediately demand everyone be legilmenized, even tho' it is known that there was a leak/mole in the previous Order. Not even a demand for it to be done to Sirius whom they all thought was the spy. They just accept that he is innocent without proof?
Of course, we have no idea whether or not Albus DID take a look into Sirius' mind while he had him alone in Flitwick's office before he had Harry and Hermione rescue him.
Re: Using LegilimencysunnyskywalkerJuly 2 2014, 01:47:57 UTC
I guess it depends on how easy it would have been to manipulate James and Sirius, or at least on how easy Dumbledore thought it was.
For instance, if he was discussing the possible leak with them and maybe a few others, and instead of asking them, he lamented how he couldn't use the ancient art of Legilimency on the few unnamed persons (implied to be someone not present) he suspected. James and Sirius protest that he can just ask those people, and if they refuse, well, there's your proof! Oh no, he couldn't possibly single out people like that - showing such mistrust would irreparably damage his relationship with the ones who proved innocent and would justifiably feel that he was prejudiced against them somehow. (Not that this would necessarily be true, but he thinks it's how they would feel, and so they'd believe others would too.) Then, hopefully, one of them comes up with the idea on his own that Dumbledore should Legilimize everyone. Then no one can complain! My dear boys, I wouldn't want to subject you unnecessarily to such an uncomfortable procedure... Then they're really have to, because what are they, cowards?
It might not have worked, since they all did have things to hide. But then he would have had one more foolish decision to hold over them, which it doesn't seem like he did. And I doubt using it wouldn't have occurred to him at all, since he does use it on Harry. So either he didn't think of either outright asking or manipulating his followers into asking (Dumbles, pass up an opportunity to manipulate?), or he was confident he could catch the spy by other means or already knew who it was and had reasons for not tipping them off.
Which still provides for many different possibilities, of course.
Re: Using Legilimencyoryx_leucoryxJune 26 2014, 15:11:53 UTC
The options I find believable:
1) It never occurred to him. (Asking for permission? What's that?) 2) It didn't occur to him people would agree (because he would never have). 3) He believed he could catch the leak anyway and didn't want to alert the traitor or Voldemort that he was aware of the leak's existence.
I brought up Harry to show that Dumbles did not have a principled objection to performing Legilimency on people he considered on his side.
Albus' presence at 12GP - there is mention of people Harry saw coming in and out of 12GP during August, and it did not include Dumbles. The evening before the hearing Molly says Albus had been over the previous night. It seems that at least from the time Harry arrived at 12GP Albus only ever showed up after Harry's bedtime.
Before that - Ron said he and Hernione only saw Dumbles twice since their arrival at 12GP. Nor did he show up anytime Harry was awake during Christmas break - he sent Sirius a letter about the planned Occlumency lessons and Severus delivered the news to Harry personally.
However, this was the year Albus was specifically avoiding Harry, so there is no necessity to assume he avoided meeting Order members in the first war to the same degree. For all we know, when the trio wasn't around Dumbles was always having chats with Dedalus Diggle and the rest.
Good point about how little WE see between Albus and other Order members than Severus, altho' I would presume that he is there for at least a few meetings and since Harry cannot listen in I assume he loses interest in hanging around the door.
Still, not-canon that there are numerous incidents that give the opportunity for Albus to take a look - especially if the only opportunities are meetings with other Adults around who would also see him doing it.
But IF Albus is not often in the presence of Order members (except possibly group meetings) then one has to ask if that was the same duding VW1? If so, that also fives a reason why he didn't just legilmenize the Marauders to see why they felt suspect. Even outside of the meetings they were probably rarely alone and so would notice Albus staring.
The question then is whether or not they knew anything about the 'rare art' of Legilmency. Presumably, IF Remus really is a 'Defense Whiz' (not exactly proven in-canon since the other DADA teachers than Snape were so bad), then he might have known, but I doubt it was part of any of their lessons at Hogwarts.
We know Remus knows about it by bk5 since he speaks of Snape's talent with Occlumency, and he might possibly have known by bk3 since there are a few mentions of him staring intently, but we don't really know whether he knew back in VW1.
This also brings up the question of why Albus didn't legilmens Remus in bk3. He was obviously not telling Albus 'everything' and since most of what he wasn't telling had to do with Sirius you would thing that feeling that Remus was holding something back would occur to Albus.
I suppose the 'out' there is that Remus had convinced himself that telling the secrets wouldn't help, that Sirius was getting in thru ways he learned from Voldy. IF Remus is throughly convinced then presumably he not only doesn't worry over the memories that suggest otherwise (making it less obvious to Albus that he is hiding anything), but he also 'feels' sincere, as you mentioned.
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He could have asked permission of his followers and interrogated them quite legitimately, especially once there was evidence for there being a leak from within the Order.
Hell, if I were a member of a vigilante group risking death from another guerilla group and imprisonment by the government, and I trusted my leader and knew him to be a Legilimens, I'd be DEMANDING that he Legilimize me and my fellow conspirators once I thought there might be a leak (whether betrayal, carelessness, or involuntary).
It wouldn't be immoral (and probably not illegal) if it were done with full permission. And any member of the Order could freely choose not to give that permission--of course, assumptions would be made by their fellows, and maybe they'd be dumped out of the Order and Obliviated if they did refuse....
The only reason why I can think why Scummy didn't suggest that is that he was playing some double game that took precedence over protecting his followers. Either Dumbles knew (or thought he knew) the source of the leak, and wanted Tom to think he hadn't figured it out (being too noble to use Legilimency against his followers like Tom does)....
Or, just possibly, Twinkles expected someone to react to such a suggestion by taking their gobstones and going home, and it was someone Albus wanted to keep tied to him more than he wanted to keep his followers safe. (I could see James-and-Sirius as contenders for this--if you don't trust us you don't have to have us!)
Can you think of other reasons why Scummy shouldn't suggest openly Legilimizing his loyal followers? I mean, other than the fact that telling ANYONE the truth and asking permission to do ANYTHING is probably so foreign as to be actively painful to them man?
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There is also the possibility that James/Sirius (and other Order members) had never even heard of legilimency at that point in time.
One thing that must be considered is that several of the 'old' Order members rejoin and do not immediately demand everyone be legilmenized, even tho' it is known that there was a leak/mole in the previous Order. Not even a demand for it to be done to Sirius whom they all thought was the spy. They just accept that he is innocent without proof?
Of course, we have no idea whether or not Albus DID take a look into Sirius' mind while he had him alone in Flitwick's office before he had Harry and Hermione rescue him.
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For instance, if he was discussing the possible leak with them and maybe a few others, and instead of asking them, he lamented how he couldn't use the ancient art of Legilimency on the few unnamed persons (implied to be someone not present) he suspected. James and Sirius protest that he can just ask those people, and if they refuse, well, there's your proof! Oh no, he couldn't possibly single out people like that - showing such mistrust would irreparably damage his relationship with the ones who proved innocent and would justifiably feel that he was prejudiced against them somehow. (Not that this would necessarily be true, but he thinks it's how they would feel, and so they'd believe others would too.) Then, hopefully, one of them comes up with the idea on his own that Dumbledore should Legilimize everyone. Then no one can complain! My dear boys, I wouldn't want to subject you unnecessarily to such an uncomfortable procedure... Then they're really have to, because what are they, cowards?
It might not have worked, since they all did have things to hide. But then he would have had one more foolish decision to hold over them, which it doesn't seem like he did. And I doubt using it wouldn't have occurred to him at all, since he does use it on Harry. So either he didn't think of either outright asking or manipulating his followers into asking (Dumbles, pass up an opportunity to manipulate?), or he was confident he could catch the spy by other means or already knew who it was and had reasons for not tipping them off.
Which still provides for many different possibilities, of course.
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1) It never occurred to him. (Asking for permission? What's that?)
2) It didn't occur to him people would agree (because he would never have).
3) He believed he could catch the leak anyway and didn't want to alert the traitor or Voldemort that he was aware of the leak's existence.
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Albus' presence at 12GP - there is mention of people Harry saw coming in and out of 12GP during August, and it did not include Dumbles. The evening before the hearing Molly says Albus had been over the previous night. It seems that at least from the time Harry arrived at 12GP Albus only ever showed up after Harry's bedtime.
Before that - Ron said he and Hernione only saw Dumbles twice since their arrival at 12GP. Nor did he show up anytime Harry was awake during Christmas break - he sent Sirius a letter about the planned Occlumency lessons and Severus delivered the news to Harry personally.
However, this was the year Albus was specifically avoiding Harry, so there is no necessity to assume he avoided meeting Order members in the first war to the same degree. For all we know, when the trio wasn't around Dumbles was always having chats with Dedalus Diggle and the rest.
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