To whom it may concern...
(or, if you prefer, You are neither Anne C. Stone nor James E. Starrs... sorry)
(I wrote this today while waiting for a phone call from a London Hospital, and couldn't concentrate on anything else anyway... Please forgive me for any grammar/spelling/sentence structure mistake resulting from that fact)
*sigh*
Trust me, I’m really not THAT kind of person...
Because one, it’s the internet; two, I’m a firm believer in everyone’s right to make up their own opinion and speak their mind freely. And three, I’m usually getting really tired, sick and frustrated when I realize that no matter what I do, I keep talking against (mental) walls…
And truth be told, I already summed up everything here, using not even a fraction of the words I use in this post. So if you want to cut things short, just read this one. (The post refers, by the way, not only to this incident but also to an event of a similar kind in real life.)
So actually, I’m surprised about myself here. REALLY surprised.
Still, I told myself to go through with it, because this is most likely the last post I’ll ever write on this matter. After that, I said everything I had to say as of now, and even repeated myself several times.
If I get reactions to it (here, on my LJ), I will of course reply, but other than that, I don’t see why I should have to investigate to find out if people are talking behind my back or not, and I honestly don’t even care anymore.
Having said that, let’s get straight to the matter.
What is this?
This is just a post stating my opinion on a recent event, and raising some questions that have been on my mind for the last few weeks. Why? Because I was told to. And believe it or not, because I actually care about those answers. I really do.
All in all, I will try to be short and down to the point (but I can already tell that even the condensed version will be far too long...)
What is this about?
I know the roots of this go way, way back further; but essentially, it’s about this post, this reaction to it and this follow-up.
(Please, bear in mind that only the comments made by me represent my opinion.)
If you are reading this, I think you are familiar with the whole incident anyway, so I don't have to add a summary.
All in all, this is primarily a message to _ice_lady_ (since all the credit for the initial post goes to her; and she has been the one I was primarily talking to), but since I know that sphinxofthenile hates to be ignored, I’m simply using ‘you’ in the following (so you can see that as singular or plural, as you prefer).
I strongly encourage everyone who feels like saying anything on that matter to comment here (especially _ice_lady_, since I wrote that post on her request- but of course it's her choice). Raise your questions, please, that’s what I’m here for and what I wanted to begin with. I would prefer no personal attacks and no name-calling, since that's always a sign of missing arguments (and we are here to discuss, aren't we?). I’ve never blocked anyone from my journal so far, and I trust it won’t be necessary.
Sorry that I’m not providing screenshots. I’ve never been as fond of those as certain other people obviously are, and I don’t think any of the posts and comments I’m linking will be deleted soon (if they are, I will most likely delete this post, too, since it no longer serves a purpose). If any of the links doesn't work, please let me know... it was an awful lot of work to put the all in, and I'm not sure I checked everything.
One final remark: in the following, I will refer to one person as ‘a friend (of yours)’ without giving a name or linking posts/comments. This is out of respect for that person, since I didn’t ask her opinion and I don’t want to drag her into this yet again. I know that for those following the entire thing, it can be easily guessed who I’m referring to, but I still think it’s enough if ice_lady and sphinx know. I will also refer to certain other people without linking to their profiles, because I don’t think it’s necessary, but I can of course provide links/screenshots/information if someone thinks it’s crucial.
Ok…
*deep breath*
Let’s get started.
I admit that I was initially just thunderstruck by your post, which you could most likely tell by my very emotional reaction to it. However, at one point, I took a step back, looked at it and thought: “Well, they might have their reasons for seeing it this way. After all, they claim they wanted a discussion, so let’s try talking to them.”
You might remember how that went…
Since you requested I use more logic ("How about next time you come with facts instead of excuses that make the Bible sound like a biology textbook."), I will try my very best... Allow me to use two very simple examples here to explain how I see the situation, and the resulting problem (bear with me, it will al make sense in a bit):
EXAMPLE 1:
Let’s assume that we come across a claim like: “Peter’s car is black and red.”
Now, I can just take this sentence as it and not think about it any further, or I can make up my own opinion about it. Based on that, I could come (at least) two clearly contradicting conclusions:
A) Peter’s car is mostly red (with bits of black).
B) Peter’s car is mostly black (with bits of red).
Let’s now assume people with such contradicting opinions end up having a discussion. Basically, they can agree to disagree (since judging from just the initial claim, every possibility is equally likely), or they can try to convince each other with arguments.
For example: “A must be true, because Peter loves red.” or “B is more likely, since Peter bought that car to impress this girl, who hates red cars.”
Again, it’s likely that the other side can’t be convinced, and both opinions are still essentially equal. There is no arguing about that, unless someone has actually seen that car before and KNOWS how it looks like. This person might be a tad more passionate about their views, because they just KNOW they are right; but they have to face the fact that whether one believes them or not depends crucially on the other person's opinion about them (and of course there is the chance they are wrong without even knowing it - they saw the wrong car, for example).
In the end, it’s all open (no one can argue to be 'more right' by default) until someone can provide a photo of Peter’s car (oh well, even that might be fake) or till Peter shows up and everyone can see the car for themselves. Only then do you have actual proof that it’s one way, or the other.
EXAMPLE 2:
Sometimes statements are considered true by a majority simple because of lack of information, or because they assume they know the circumstances when they don’t.
There is this commonly cited myth that Einstein was a bad student, because his most common grade was a 6 (which in the German grading system means a really bad result - given that 1 is the best and 6 the worst) .
While it’s actually considered true that he got those results, what most people don’t know is that he went to school in Switzerland back then, where the system is exactly reversed (so 6 is the best grade, and 1 the worst). He was actually great student instead of a bad one. (Proof of this can be found on many sites, including Wikipedia, but the myth is still going strong.)
So based on the lack of this single bit of information (he went to a Swiss school at that point), or simply based on assuming that the more well-known German conditions apply, people have been drawing the wrong conclusions for years.
Now, how does this apply to our situation?
EXAMPLE 1:
Based on the screenshots you provided and the contradictions you found, you drew the following conclusions:
A) Zane, Suny and Gabriel (and probably some other people) are in fact just one person
B) Gabriel’s entire backstory is a lie made up to troll the fandom
I look at the same screenshots, and based on my perspective on the story (mainly resulting from conversations with Gabriel, but also Suny, Zane and other people), I came to the following conclusion:
a) Zane, Suny and Gabriel are three different people
b) Gabriel’s backstory is true in all major points
Of course we can argue back and forth here all we want. I can show you my proof, which you reject as being fake or made up or me simply being wrong. Fair enogh, I can do the same about the arguments you provide (twist them or simply not accept them).
You will have to forgive me for occasionally being passionate about it, since as I pointed out several times, I KNOW Gabriel.
(I’ve listed some reasons why I believe his story here and here. Yes, I admit that I sometimes had my doubt about things, too, especially in the beginning when Gabriel hardly told me anything about his background. Contrary to what you might believe, he didn’t run around telling EVERYONE, and he still finds certain things very hard to talk about. I know that a lot of his story sounds like a bad novel, but that’s not enough to claim he’s lying. Sometimes life is ‘worse’ than any fictional creation. Maybe I’m more likely to believe it because I can look at my own life, and at that of someone very close to me - who happens to have what you could call a ‘mental disorder due to childhood trauma’, too - and I can see similar aspects in Gabriel.)
But in the end, it would actually require Gabriel to show up in person, look into everyone’s eyes and tell the story (and ideally show official documents to back it up) to provide the undeniable proof in this case.
EXAMPLE 2:
You pointed out the posts you provided sound like written by the same person and have many contradictions, therefore your theory A and B must apply.
In some of the comments to your initial post, I actually agreed on the basic claims (those posts being written by just one person and the fact they might be contradictions), but wanted to point out that there could be a different reason, too - namely that Gabriel wrote all of them for reasons I pointed out to you (which are not him being fake and lying and trolling) and that some of the contradictions are not really contradictions if you know his entire story (like the much quoted fact he had two sisters - a half-sister and a step-sister, to be precise; the latter being Suny - who he both refers to simply as ‘his sister’ in different posts; there is also a locked entry on his LJ where he wrote down that entire story long ago - just explaining how I know).
Not even mentioning the fact that a person with a mental disorder is not the most reliable ‘poster’ there is… As i said before, it's called DISORDER for a reason, and you are welcome to look up the symptoms for Dissociative Identity Disorder. (Again, this does not mean he’s lying about his disorder or the reasons for it)
So in fact, I claimed your basic premise was right, but you were drawing the wrong conclusions. All I did in the following was to provide additional information that might make you reconsider (not to make up excuses or play you or whatever else you might think).
In all of this, I never wanted you to agree with me completely, I just wanted you to CONSIDER THE OPTION THAT THERE COULD BE AN EQUALLY VALID POINT OR A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION. If I came across in any other way, I apologize for not being able to pick the correct words.
This is of course just my opinion. Again, you are welcome to tell me yours.
Moving on from that brief intro...
As you have seen in the past, I preferred to either stay neutral (which you even acknowledged... well, sort of) - especially if I can’t judge a situation - or to state my opinion on a matter without taking anyone’s side just for the sake of taking their side (I might be loyal, but not blindly loyal).
I expected the same from you, actually. Being just a tad more neutral and willing to listen to the other side, even if you have your own opinion already made up. This is not a reproach, I'm merely stating a fact.
And I’m not talking about those moments where I was ‘emotional’ and you replied in a similar tone. Fair enough, we are even there.
(You know, sometimes I just can’t stay neutral. I have my ‘berserk botton’, just like everyone else. In fact, you should just know enough about my past to know what and why. We talked about this before, after all… I still have the PM.
Let’s just say I’ve witnessed certain things in my life that made me despise nothing more than people to claim they possess ‘the only truth’ and that their opinion is the only one that counts -especially if it’s about something that can’t be proven. If I’m faced with people like that, I often act very emotional, not entirely rational.
It’s a flaw, I know. But I’m not afraid to admit my flaws. )
I’m talking about those moments where I just asked a question, or posted a counterargument to something you said. Instead of having a discussion about theories (like you do at school or university, for example… we should all be used to that, shouldn't we?) and replying to the point I made, you repeatedly chose to either attack me personally, change the issue completely to something else or pick on a tiny detail that could be read in a different way than I intended (for example, you claimed I was mistaken about the fact that MSN wasn’t giving IPAs, when I never talked about MSN to begin with; or you said that Zane changing Gabriel’s password would not keep him from reading a public post - yes, of course not, but it would keep him from accessing his inbox and see the 'nice' comments he got, telling him that he is a liar and deserves to be raped FOR REAL. I never made any other claim here). You have to admit that it's frankly irritating to be always attacked and accused and ignored in such a way ( I know, one could say I also attacked you personally at times; but well, point me to one moment where I didn’t answer a question you raised).
Yesterday, we had two brilliant examples for that:
Pointing out that something you quote can be read in a different way, and asking for more information. Your reaction, including the three times you didn’t answer my question (without even saying why you chose not to answer).
Or providing a counterargument, not even claiming to know ‘the entire truth’, and your reaction to it -
Me:
Since you so kindly asked me to "come with facts instead of excuses that make the Bible sound like a biology textbook":
Look, I don't know anything about the circumstances of this trial, and I never claimed to. I know less than Neph does, because there are things Gabriel never talked to me about (but I know someone you could ask, actually. As far as I know, Gabriel told her about this incident, too).
Still, even as someone not knowing the details, I can tell you are really taking the easy way out here... What you provide is not sufficent evidence that this is all a lie. (Not saying I can prove without a doubt that Neph's version is true, but unlike you, I never claimed that...)
However, you are not mentioning that Neph said that 'connections' played a role in this trial (and I'm not sure if she also mentioned that the person in question was arrested on sight while trying to attack someone with a weapon; but that was the case as I was told). In addition, what if there was enough evidence? Enough witnesses? What if the accused pleaded guilty, or had a really bad lawyer? All those factors play a role, you know.
Most certainly though, you don't want to compare this trial to a murder case where detailed investigation had to take place first (have you studied the timeline of the link you provided? They had to find a suspet first, while in the case Neph talked about, they had arrested the offender already).
And please, check out this link: http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/C/6/7/%7BC6708A1E-A29D-45D9-B8D7-0003A3EE379E%7Drpp74.pdf
On page 9 ('real' page nine, page 25 of the entire document), you will find statistics about how long it takes for a case in Australia from intiation to finalisation (bear in mind that's 2004/05; in 2006 they introduced a law to speed up processes even further).
Your turn.
You:
Why are you so adamant in foaming over me accusing them for this grand conspiracy/lie/whatever?
All I did was connect a bunch of screenshots with "there's something fishy here, draw your own conclusions". NOT THE SAME THING.
And btw, *you* see a bunch of fishy screenshots and start screaming that I'm most certainly seeing/implying/concluding there's a massive conspiracy going on there. What am *I* supposed to think of *that*, then?
Seriously, can you explain to me what your reaction has to do with what I said previously?
(This picture sums up not only my exact reaction but also how I feel about this entire story by now…)
And this is - as I said before - actually my real problem with the entire incident. The way you deal with it, and with everyone who happens to have a different opinion, no matter how neutrally it is put (I’m not defending those who attacked you on a personal level, by the way. Never did, never will… I’m just talking about our conversations here, not about anything else that went on).
Finally: My questions...
So, since you asked me to, I will try for one final time (though I honestly don’t expect much of this)…
Here are those questions I would really, honestly like an answer to:
1) Why now?
Why reheat the entire issue months after it was over? Even the two authors directly concerned have moved on by now, their writing more or less unaffected (Amarissia never changed anything in the first place, Luna still posts Cloud/Seph and is about to rewrite Ceaseless Oblivion).
And neither Gabriel nor Suny is actually active in the fandom at the moment, and hasn’t been for months (Zane never really was to begin with, but you know that).
Don’t tell me it was my post (that was basically just me addressing a certain group of people and venting on my journal, a fact I pointed out repeatedly), or the fact that Nephilim threatened (because as far as I remember, she only threatened ‘those people who harass Gabriel’ - at one point even pointing at Amarissia fangirls. She never mentioned your name, and if you still felt threatened personally, it sounds a lot like guilty conscience to me…) (but as I said, I'm not sure... you are welcome to prove me wrong)
2) Why this hate?
(I was not the only one to raise this question in the very first comment, mind you…)
Honestly, you never did anything like this for anyone in jrock so far, and there were people who attacked you personally and called you names. Even in this plagiarism issue (where you invested a similar amount of time and effort), you stuck to writing, you never even mentioned that author’s personal life.
I’m sorry if I repeatedly called you out on the tone you use (already in when you commented on my LJ entry before you even published your post), but that’s exactly what makes the difference between merely stating facts and influening/wanting people to interpret them a certain way. Your tone would maybe justified if you had absolue prove for what you say - but in my eyes, you don't have that.
Based on that... Forgive me if I’m jumping to conclusions here, but to me, it looks by now as if this is personal. More personal than you admit.
Not because you seriously cared about a fandom you left long ago, not because you seriously cared about two writers who had received criticism (or ‘devastating reviews/comments’, if you prefer - no, I honestly don’t want to start another discussion about that if even the authors concerned are over it by now), but because you wanted revenge on a specific person, therefore you chose some close to that person, someone you knew your ‘real target’ would defend, and you’d have her where you want her, caught up in another war. This is all about Nephilim, isn’t it? (After all, you said yourself "I out Gabriel (...) as a fictional figment of
twiggyboredom's mind which
nephilim_rising is using to bully fanfic authors who she dislikes"
Or is it because you haven’t forgiven Gabriel for that one remark about the 'female role model' that once upset you so much, or for defending his boyfriend?
Feel free to give me your thoughts on this… this is why I’m asking.
3) Why like this?
It was about WRITING to begin with. So why not spoof Twiggy’s or Nephilim’s writing? Why not write them a review exactly like the one Luna or Amarissia got? That would have been the logical thing, instead of months of research about personal things that have nothing do with writing or criticism.
Do you remember me every speaking up when you wrote a spoof of the first review? No, because I didn’t. Because it was payback in kind.
You know, from the get-go, I pointed out what my real problem with your post was. You claim you just provided screenshots so everyone could make up their own opinion. Well… if you had done that, I wouldn’t have spoken up. But as a scientist and a writer, you should be able to judge that what you did was not providing information in a neutral way, but pretty much trying to influence everyone to read and interpret it ‘your way’. The tone (yes, again) you used. The spoofing.
And not even to mention comments like those on your original post, which are not exactly ‘neutral’ either:
"It's pretty abhorrent what they're doing, and I just wouldn't be able to live with myself if I let them cast such a black light on mental illnesses, make utter fun on the abuse survivors and, you know, just being pricks in general."
"Using up mental illnesses, eating disorders and rape/child abuse to justify your need to troll fanfic writers?"
What still completely baffles me in all this is that some people seriously don’t get that there is a HUGE difference between spoofing someone’s writing, and spoofing someone’s life. True, it hurts to receive criticism for something you created, but it is something completely else to be told in sarcastic words that one’s whole life is nothing but a lie.
(And do you know why I know that? Because I have seen it happen before. And not only once… but that is something that does not belong here at all.)
4) Did you ever consider anyone else’s opinion?
By now, it pretty much looks like this to me: When you said you wanted arguments, you never meant it. You were never seriously trying to see the other side. From the beginning on, all you cared about was to find evidence that supported your version. And only your version.
True, I have to accept that you won’t listen to me. That you never asked me any questions in that matter, except this one time on my post (and I answered, remember?).
I also have to accept you never tried to talk to Gabriel or Suny in person (Gabriel offered several times in his review to Amarissia and in his LJ post the he was willing to discuss things).
But just out of curiosity: have you ever actually spoken to Luna or Amarissia (I know you spoke to her during that review incident, but I mean recently)? Because they both say they are over what happened. This is also why they both told their fans to stop sending hate messages (repeatedly, actually).
And finally, you know that friend we both have. She spoke to Gabriel, too. She does ballet, and I know she and Gabriel talked about that a lot.
In addition, she knows all about medication, some medical issues, and an awful lot about anorexia (and trust me, there are things about that you can’t just look up in a book...).
Did you ever ask her if she thought Gabriel was telling the truth about any of this?
And on top of that, you say you care about her and don’t want her to get hurt. Still you let her talk to a person you think is a liar and a troll, let her invest feelings in a person that doesn't exist?
(Maybe I'm mistaken and you actually did. Please, you are very welcome to tell me in that case...)
5) Why are you so convinced that your theory is right, and that there is no other option?
I already pointed out here why I think some parts of the trolling theory don’t necessarily make sense when you think about it. I know you read that post, and I would really like to hear your opinion about it.
Because of those contradictions? There is almost no situation and no human being without some sort of contradictions.
I mean, I could point out a few about you:
Starting from minor things like the fact that you keep telling everyone to ‘read the entire post’, while freely admitting you didn’t even read the stories you were defending in those review incidents; or that you stated several times to not have looked at any of Nephilim’s accounts (because you had no time and better things to do), but seeing the effort you put into looking up everything about Suny, Zane and Gabriel makes that somehow questionable.
Over to the major things like you claiming to have written your post so everyone could make up their own opinion, yet instantly reply to a user just posting "I don't even have words at this point." by saying "Using up mental illnesses, eating disorders and rape/child abuse to justify your need to troll fanfic writers? Oh, I have words for that. Not sure if uttering them is legal." (Again, how has anything you presented ever been neutral, and not aimed at influencing everyone reasding it to believe your interpretation? It's ok if that was your aim, but at least admit it.)
And finally, the fact that someone else can raise the same questions I raised and defend Gabriel, without being attacked for it (I don’t want to elaborate on this, you know what I’m referring to. If not, I’ll happily point you to the passage in question).
Please, just look at some of the points I made again. I always said I'm willing to provide more information, and in a calmer tone, if you are just willing to at least consider.
6) Why did you listen to me in the past then?
Remember when we talked before? Those PMs and MSN conversations (don’t have the latter because I don’t have automatic protocol enabled, but I still have those PMs)?
“And just to be sure, I value honesty the same way. I speak my mind and expect others to do so too. So trust me, I understand where you are coming from, and I have always valued our exchanges as such. And so I will in all honesty say, we had a little situation there that left me surprised it even happened.
But our intention was never to hurt anyone or tell them how they should function in life. We were expressing our opinion on certain issues, even if perhaps at points it didn't happen in the most advisable way.”
“If there is a personal pet peeve I have, it's respect towards another person. I believe that is why I'm in human rights - the dignity and freedoms of a person are the most precious values I can think of, and it naturally rubs me the wrong way if I see someone trample on them.”
Any of that sound familiar? If so, what happened?
And I’m frankly a bit irritated that you now accuse me of ‘emotional blackmailing’ in the past. All I did was asking you a favour. You agreed to do it. You PROMISED me to do it. You never asked me for more details to prove my statements were true. You could have done that, and you could have said ‘no’ at any point. Or just told me that you changed your mind.
And finally, connected to that, a personal question which you can choose not to answer, but I still put it here anyway:
7) If you had a problem with me, why did you never tell me?
Why did I have to find out via other people, or too late (in a heated argument)? Why did you never give me a chance to defend myself?
You repeatedly told me “I don’t care who you are friends with” (just like you are telling someone else now). I really wonder at what point you changed your opinion (because I don’t want to assume that it was something you never meant to begin with)? What did I do?
As I said before, in all of this, I don’t blame you for having your own opinion, for investigating, for looking for contradictions. I don’t blame you for your doubts, I don't blame you for voicing them.
But I do blame you for closing your eyes to any sort of evidence that contradicts your theory, for closing your ears to any voice speaking up in defense, and for closing your minds completely to the slightest hint that things might not be like they think they are. I blame you for the way you are dealing with this, for your tone, for that hate you show.
(EDIT: sphinxofthenile posted a reply to my questions, which can be found here. I posted a brief reply to her in that thread, and will not comment on this any further.)
Yes, I am aware of the fact that most likely nothing I say or do will change anything. That you don't care anyway. That I lost much more sleep over this than you ever did.
But honestly, did you really expect me to just stand back and let this happen? Watch a person I love deeply getting hurt by all this (and not only one)?
If you did, you never knew me at all.
As for now, I rest my case with this one conclusion:
(moving on...)
(I wrote this today while waiting for a phone call from a London Hospital, and couldn't concentrate on anything else anyway... Please forgive me for any grammar/spelling/sentence structure mistake resulting from that fact)
*sigh*
Trust me, I’m really not THAT kind of person...
Because one, it’s the internet; two, I’m a firm believer in everyone’s right to make up their own opinion and speak their mind freely. And three, I’m usually getting really tired, sick and frustrated when I realize that no matter what I do, I keep talking against (mental) walls…
And truth be told, I already summed up everything here, using not even a fraction of the words I use in this post. So if you want to cut things short, just read this one. (The post refers, by the way, not only to this incident but also to an event of a similar kind in real life.)
So actually, I’m surprised about myself here. REALLY surprised.
Still, I told myself to go through with it, because this is most likely the last post I’ll ever write on this matter. After that, I said everything I had to say as of now, and even repeated myself several times.
If I get reactions to it (here, on my LJ), I will of course reply, but other than that, I don’t see why I should have to investigate to find out if people are talking behind my back or not, and I honestly don’t even care anymore.
Having said that, let’s get straight to the matter.
What is this?
This is just a post stating my opinion on a recent event, and raising some questions that have been on my mind for the last few weeks. Why? Because I was told to. And believe it or not, because I actually care about those answers. I really do.
All in all, I will try to be short and down to the point (but I can already tell that even the condensed version will be far too long...)
What is this about?
I know the roots of this go way, way back further; but essentially, it’s about this post, this reaction to it and this follow-up.
(Please, bear in mind that only the comments made by me represent my opinion.)
If you are reading this, I think you are familiar with the whole incident anyway, so I don't have to add a summary.
All in all, this is primarily a message to _ice_lady_ (since all the credit for the initial post goes to her; and she has been the one I was primarily talking to), but since I know that sphinxofthenile hates to be ignored, I’m simply using ‘you’ in the following (so you can see that as singular or plural, as you prefer).
I strongly encourage everyone who feels like saying anything on that matter to comment here (especially _ice_lady_, since I wrote that post on her request- but of course it's her choice). Raise your questions, please, that’s what I’m here for and what I wanted to begin with. I would prefer no personal attacks and no name-calling, since that's always a sign of missing arguments (and we are here to discuss, aren't we?). I’ve never blocked anyone from my journal so far, and I trust it won’t be necessary.
Sorry that I’m not providing screenshots. I’ve never been as fond of those as certain other people obviously are, and I don’t think any of the posts and comments I’m linking will be deleted soon (if they are, I will most likely delete this post, too, since it no longer serves a purpose). If any of the links doesn't work, please let me know... it was an awful lot of work to put the all in, and I'm not sure I checked everything.
One final remark: in the following, I will refer to one person as ‘a friend (of yours)’ without giving a name or linking posts/comments. This is out of respect for that person, since I didn’t ask her opinion and I don’t want to drag her into this yet again. I know that for those following the entire thing, it can be easily guessed who I’m referring to, but I still think it’s enough if ice_lady and sphinx know. I will also refer to certain other people without linking to their profiles, because I don’t think it’s necessary, but I can of course provide links/screenshots/information if someone thinks it’s crucial.
Ok…
*deep breath*
Let’s get started.
I admit that I was initially just thunderstruck by your post, which you could most likely tell by my very emotional reaction to it. However, at one point, I took a step back, looked at it and thought: “Well, they might have their reasons for seeing it this way. After all, they claim they wanted a discussion, so let’s try talking to them.”
You might remember how that went…
Since you requested I use more logic ("How about next time you come with facts instead of excuses that make the Bible sound like a biology textbook."), I will try my very best... Allow me to use two very simple examples here to explain how I see the situation, and the resulting problem (bear with me, it will al make sense in a bit):
EXAMPLE 1:
Let’s assume that we come across a claim like: “Peter’s car is black and red.”
Now, I can just take this sentence as it and not think about it any further, or I can make up my own opinion about it. Based on that, I could come (at least) two clearly contradicting conclusions:
A) Peter’s car is mostly red (with bits of black).
B) Peter’s car is mostly black (with bits of red).
Let’s now assume people with such contradicting opinions end up having a discussion. Basically, they can agree to disagree (since judging from just the initial claim, every possibility is equally likely), or they can try to convince each other with arguments.
For example: “A must be true, because Peter loves red.” or “B is more likely, since Peter bought that car to impress this girl, who hates red cars.”
Again, it’s likely that the other side can’t be convinced, and both opinions are still essentially equal. There is no arguing about that, unless someone has actually seen that car before and KNOWS how it looks like. This person might be a tad more passionate about their views, because they just KNOW they are right; but they have to face the fact that whether one believes them or not depends crucially on the other person's opinion about them (and of course there is the chance they are wrong without even knowing it - they saw the wrong car, for example).
In the end, it’s all open (no one can argue to be 'more right' by default) until someone can provide a photo of Peter’s car (oh well, even that might be fake) or till Peter shows up and everyone can see the car for themselves. Only then do you have actual proof that it’s one way, or the other.
EXAMPLE 2:
Sometimes statements are considered true by a majority simple because of lack of information, or because they assume they know the circumstances when they don’t.
There is this commonly cited myth that Einstein was a bad student, because his most common grade was a 6 (which in the German grading system means a really bad result - given that 1 is the best and 6 the worst) .
While it’s actually considered true that he got those results, what most people don’t know is that he went to school in Switzerland back then, where the system is exactly reversed (so 6 is the best grade, and 1 the worst). He was actually great student instead of a bad one. (Proof of this can be found on many sites, including Wikipedia, but the myth is still going strong.)
So based on the lack of this single bit of information (he went to a Swiss school at that point), or simply based on assuming that the more well-known German conditions apply, people have been drawing the wrong conclusions for years.
Now, how does this apply to our situation?
EXAMPLE 1:
Based on the screenshots you provided and the contradictions you found, you drew the following conclusions:
A) Zane, Suny and Gabriel (and probably some other people) are in fact just one person
B) Gabriel’s entire backstory is a lie made up to troll the fandom
I look at the same screenshots, and based on my perspective on the story (mainly resulting from conversations with Gabriel, but also Suny, Zane and other people), I came to the following conclusion:
a) Zane, Suny and Gabriel are three different people
b) Gabriel’s backstory is true in all major points
Of course we can argue back and forth here all we want. I can show you my proof, which you reject as being fake or made up or me simply being wrong. Fair enogh, I can do the same about the arguments you provide (twist them or simply not accept them).
You will have to forgive me for occasionally being passionate about it, since as I pointed out several times, I KNOW Gabriel.
(I’ve listed some reasons why I believe his story here and here. Yes, I admit that I sometimes had my doubt about things, too, especially in the beginning when Gabriel hardly told me anything about his background. Contrary to what you might believe, he didn’t run around telling EVERYONE, and he still finds certain things very hard to talk about. I know that a lot of his story sounds like a bad novel, but that’s not enough to claim he’s lying. Sometimes life is ‘worse’ than any fictional creation. Maybe I’m more likely to believe it because I can look at my own life, and at that of someone very close to me - who happens to have what you could call a ‘mental disorder due to childhood trauma’, too - and I can see similar aspects in Gabriel.)
But in the end, it would actually require Gabriel to show up in person, look into everyone’s eyes and tell the story (and ideally show official documents to back it up) to provide the undeniable proof in this case.
EXAMPLE 2:
You pointed out the posts you provided sound like written by the same person and have many contradictions, therefore your theory A and B must apply.
In some of the comments to your initial post, I actually agreed on the basic claims (those posts being written by just one person and the fact they might be contradictions), but wanted to point out that there could be a different reason, too - namely that Gabriel wrote all of them for reasons I pointed out to you (which are not him being fake and lying and trolling) and that some of the contradictions are not really contradictions if you know his entire story (like the much quoted fact he had two sisters - a half-sister and a step-sister, to be precise; the latter being Suny - who he both refers to simply as ‘his sister’ in different posts; there is also a locked entry on his LJ where he wrote down that entire story long ago - just explaining how I know).
Not even mentioning the fact that a person with a mental disorder is not the most reliable ‘poster’ there is… As i said before, it's called DISORDER for a reason, and you are welcome to look up the symptoms for Dissociative Identity Disorder. (Again, this does not mean he’s lying about his disorder or the reasons for it)
So in fact, I claimed your basic premise was right, but you were drawing the wrong conclusions. All I did in the following was to provide additional information that might make you reconsider (not to make up excuses or play you or whatever else you might think).
In all of this, I never wanted you to agree with me completely, I just wanted you to CONSIDER THE OPTION THAT THERE COULD BE AN EQUALLY VALID POINT OR A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION. If I came across in any other way, I apologize for not being able to pick the correct words.
This is of course just my opinion. Again, you are welcome to tell me yours.
Moving on from that brief intro...
As you have seen in the past, I preferred to either stay neutral (which you even acknowledged... well, sort of) - especially if I can’t judge a situation - or to state my opinion on a matter without taking anyone’s side just for the sake of taking their side (I might be loyal, but not blindly loyal).
I expected the same from you, actually. Being just a tad more neutral and willing to listen to the other side, even if you have your own opinion already made up. This is not a reproach, I'm merely stating a fact.
And I’m not talking about those moments where I was ‘emotional’ and you replied in a similar tone. Fair enough, we are even there.
(You know, sometimes I just can’t stay neutral. I have my ‘berserk botton’, just like everyone else. In fact, you should just know enough about my past to know what and why. We talked about this before, after all… I still have the PM.
Let’s just say I’ve witnessed certain things in my life that made me despise nothing more than people to claim they possess ‘the only truth’ and that their opinion is the only one that counts -especially if it’s about something that can’t be proven. If I’m faced with people like that, I often act very emotional, not entirely rational.
It’s a flaw, I know. But I’m not afraid to admit my flaws. )
I’m talking about those moments where I just asked a question, or posted a counterargument to something you said. Instead of having a discussion about theories (like you do at school or university, for example… we should all be used to that, shouldn't we?) and replying to the point I made, you repeatedly chose to either attack me personally, change the issue completely to something else or pick on a tiny detail that could be read in a different way than I intended (for example, you claimed I was mistaken about the fact that MSN wasn’t giving IPAs, when I never talked about MSN to begin with; or you said that Zane changing Gabriel’s password would not keep him from reading a public post - yes, of course not, but it would keep him from accessing his inbox and see the 'nice' comments he got, telling him that he is a liar and deserves to be raped FOR REAL. I never made any other claim here). You have to admit that it's frankly irritating to be always attacked and accused and ignored in such a way ( I know, one could say I also attacked you personally at times; but well, point me to one moment where I didn’t answer a question you raised).
Yesterday, we had two brilliant examples for that:
Pointing out that something you quote can be read in a different way, and asking for more information. Your reaction, including the three times you didn’t answer my question (without even saying why you chose not to answer).
Or providing a counterargument, not even claiming to know ‘the entire truth’, and your reaction to it -
Me:
Since you so kindly asked me to "come with facts instead of excuses that make the Bible sound like a biology textbook":
Look, I don't know anything about the circumstances of this trial, and I never claimed to. I know less than Neph does, because there are things Gabriel never talked to me about (but I know someone you could ask, actually. As far as I know, Gabriel told her about this incident, too).
Still, even as someone not knowing the details, I can tell you are really taking the easy way out here... What you provide is not sufficent evidence that this is all a lie. (Not saying I can prove without a doubt that Neph's version is true, but unlike you, I never claimed that...)
However, you are not mentioning that Neph said that 'connections' played a role in this trial (and I'm not sure if she also mentioned that the person in question was arrested on sight while trying to attack someone with a weapon; but that was the case as I was told). In addition, what if there was enough evidence? Enough witnesses? What if the accused pleaded guilty, or had a really bad lawyer? All those factors play a role, you know.
Most certainly though, you don't want to compare this trial to a murder case where detailed investigation had to take place first (have you studied the timeline of the link you provided? They had to find a suspet first, while in the case Neph talked about, they had arrested the offender already).
And please, check out this link: http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/C/6/7/%7BC6708A1E-A29D-45D9-B8D7-0003A3EE379E%7Drpp74.pdf
On page 9 ('real' page nine, page 25 of the entire document), you will find statistics about how long it takes for a case in Australia from intiation to finalisation (bear in mind that's 2004/05; in 2006 they introduced a law to speed up processes even further).
Your turn.
You:
Why are you so adamant in foaming over me accusing them for this grand conspiracy/lie/whatever?
All I did was connect a bunch of screenshots with "there's something fishy here, draw your own conclusions". NOT THE SAME THING.
And btw, *you* see a bunch of fishy screenshots and start screaming that I'm most certainly seeing/implying/concluding there's a massive conspiracy going on there. What am *I* supposed to think of *that*, then?
Seriously, can you explain to me what your reaction has to do with what I said previously?
(This picture sums up not only my exact reaction but also how I feel about this entire story by now…)
And this is - as I said before - actually my real problem with the entire incident. The way you deal with it, and with everyone who happens to have a different opinion, no matter how neutrally it is put (I’m not defending those who attacked you on a personal level, by the way. Never did, never will… I’m just talking about our conversations here, not about anything else that went on).
Finally: My questions...
So, since you asked me to, I will try for one final time (though I honestly don’t expect much of this)…
Here are those questions I would really, honestly like an answer to:
1) Why now?
Why reheat the entire issue months after it was over? Even the two authors directly concerned have moved on by now, their writing more or less unaffected (Amarissia never changed anything in the first place, Luna still posts Cloud/Seph and is about to rewrite Ceaseless Oblivion).
And neither Gabriel nor Suny is actually active in the fandom at the moment, and hasn’t been for months (Zane never really was to begin with, but you know that).
Don’t tell me it was my post (that was basically just me addressing a certain group of people and venting on my journal, a fact I pointed out repeatedly), or the fact that Nephilim threatened (because as far as I remember, she only threatened ‘those people who harass Gabriel’ - at one point even pointing at Amarissia fangirls. She never mentioned your name, and if you still felt threatened personally, it sounds a lot like guilty conscience to me…) (but as I said, I'm not sure... you are welcome to prove me wrong)
2) Why this hate?
(I was not the only one to raise this question in the very first comment, mind you…)
Honestly, you never did anything like this for anyone in jrock so far, and there were people who attacked you personally and called you names. Even in this plagiarism issue (where you invested a similar amount of time and effort), you stuck to writing, you never even mentioned that author’s personal life.
I’m sorry if I repeatedly called you out on the tone you use (already in when you commented on my LJ entry before you even published your post), but that’s exactly what makes the difference between merely stating facts and influening/wanting people to interpret them a certain way. Your tone would maybe justified if you had absolue prove for what you say - but in my eyes, you don't have that.
Based on that... Forgive me if I’m jumping to conclusions here, but to me, it looks by now as if this is personal. More personal than you admit.
Not because you seriously cared about a fandom you left long ago, not because you seriously cared about two writers who had received criticism (or ‘devastating reviews/comments’, if you prefer - no, I honestly don’t want to start another discussion about that if even the authors concerned are over it by now), but because you wanted revenge on a specific person, therefore you chose some close to that person, someone you knew your ‘real target’ would defend, and you’d have her where you want her, caught up in another war. This is all about Nephilim, isn’t it? (After all, you said yourself "I out Gabriel (...) as a fictional figment of
twiggyboredom's mind which
nephilim_rising is using to bully fanfic authors who she dislikes"
Or is it because you haven’t forgiven Gabriel for that one remark about the 'female role model' that once upset you so much, or for defending his boyfriend?
Feel free to give me your thoughts on this… this is why I’m asking.
3) Why like this?
It was about WRITING to begin with. So why not spoof Twiggy’s or Nephilim’s writing? Why not write them a review exactly like the one Luna or Amarissia got? That would have been the logical thing, instead of months of research about personal things that have nothing do with writing or criticism.
Do you remember me every speaking up when you wrote a spoof of the first review? No, because I didn’t. Because it was payback in kind.
You know, from the get-go, I pointed out what my real problem with your post was. You claim you just provided screenshots so everyone could make up their own opinion. Well… if you had done that, I wouldn’t have spoken up. But as a scientist and a writer, you should be able to judge that what you did was not providing information in a neutral way, but pretty much trying to influence everyone to read and interpret it ‘your way’. The tone (yes, again) you used. The spoofing.
And not even to mention comments like those on your original post, which are not exactly ‘neutral’ either:
"It's pretty abhorrent what they're doing, and I just wouldn't be able to live with myself if I let them cast such a black light on mental illnesses, make utter fun on the abuse survivors and, you know, just being pricks in general."
"Using up mental illnesses, eating disorders and rape/child abuse to justify your need to troll fanfic writers?"
What still completely baffles me in all this is that some people seriously don’t get that there is a HUGE difference between spoofing someone’s writing, and spoofing someone’s life. True, it hurts to receive criticism for something you created, but it is something completely else to be told in sarcastic words that one’s whole life is nothing but a lie.
(And do you know why I know that? Because I have seen it happen before. And not only once… but that is something that does not belong here at all.)
4) Did you ever consider anyone else’s opinion?
By now, it pretty much looks like this to me: When you said you wanted arguments, you never meant it. You were never seriously trying to see the other side. From the beginning on, all you cared about was to find evidence that supported your version. And only your version.
True, I have to accept that you won’t listen to me. That you never asked me any questions in that matter, except this one time on my post (and I answered, remember?).
I also have to accept you never tried to talk to Gabriel or Suny in person (Gabriel offered several times in his review to Amarissia and in his LJ post the he was willing to discuss things).
But just out of curiosity: have you ever actually spoken to Luna or Amarissia (I know you spoke to her during that review incident, but I mean recently)? Because they both say they are over what happened. This is also why they both told their fans to stop sending hate messages (repeatedly, actually).
And finally, you know that friend we both have. She spoke to Gabriel, too. She does ballet, and I know she and Gabriel talked about that a lot.
In addition, she knows all about medication, some medical issues, and an awful lot about anorexia (and trust me, there are things about that you can’t just look up in a book...).
Did you ever ask her if she thought Gabriel was telling the truth about any of this?
And on top of that, you say you care about her and don’t want her to get hurt. Still you let her talk to a person you think is a liar and a troll, let her invest feelings in a person that doesn't exist?
(Maybe I'm mistaken and you actually did. Please, you are very welcome to tell me in that case...)
5) Why are you so convinced that your theory is right, and that there is no other option?
I already pointed out here why I think some parts of the trolling theory don’t necessarily make sense when you think about it. I know you read that post, and I would really like to hear your opinion about it.
Because of those contradictions? There is almost no situation and no human being without some sort of contradictions.
I mean, I could point out a few about you:
Starting from minor things like the fact that you keep telling everyone to ‘read the entire post’, while freely admitting you didn’t even read the stories you were defending in those review incidents; or that you stated several times to not have looked at any of Nephilim’s accounts (because you had no time and better things to do), but seeing the effort you put into looking up everything about Suny, Zane and Gabriel makes that somehow questionable.
Over to the major things like you claiming to have written your post so everyone could make up their own opinion, yet instantly reply to a user just posting "I don't even have words at this point." by saying "Using up mental illnesses, eating disorders and rape/child abuse to justify your need to troll fanfic writers? Oh, I have words for that. Not sure if uttering them is legal." (Again, how has anything you presented ever been neutral, and not aimed at influencing everyone reasding it to believe your interpretation? It's ok if that was your aim, but at least admit it.)
And finally, the fact that someone else can raise the same questions I raised and defend Gabriel, without being attacked for it (I don’t want to elaborate on this, you know what I’m referring to. If not, I’ll happily point you to the passage in question).
Please, just look at some of the points I made again. I always said I'm willing to provide more information, and in a calmer tone, if you are just willing to at least consider.
6) Why did you listen to me in the past then?
Remember when we talked before? Those PMs and MSN conversations (don’t have the latter because I don’t have automatic protocol enabled, but I still have those PMs)?
“And just to be sure, I value honesty the same way. I speak my mind and expect others to do so too. So trust me, I understand where you are coming from, and I have always valued our exchanges as such. And so I will in all honesty say, we had a little situation there that left me surprised it even happened.
But our intention was never to hurt anyone or tell them how they should function in life. We were expressing our opinion on certain issues, even if perhaps at points it didn't happen in the most advisable way.”
“If there is a personal pet peeve I have, it's respect towards another person. I believe that is why I'm in human rights - the dignity and freedoms of a person are the most precious values I can think of, and it naturally rubs me the wrong way if I see someone trample on them.”
Any of that sound familiar? If so, what happened?
And I’m frankly a bit irritated that you now accuse me of ‘emotional blackmailing’ in the past. All I did was asking you a favour. You agreed to do it. You PROMISED me to do it. You never asked me for more details to prove my statements were true. You could have done that, and you could have said ‘no’ at any point. Or just told me that you changed your mind.
And finally, connected to that, a personal question which you can choose not to answer, but I still put it here anyway:
7) If you had a problem with me, why did you never tell me?
Why did I have to find out via other people, or too late (in a heated argument)? Why did you never give me a chance to defend myself?
You repeatedly told me “I don’t care who you are friends with” (just like you are telling someone else now). I really wonder at what point you changed your opinion (because I don’t want to assume that it was something you never meant to begin with)? What did I do?
As I said before, in all of this, I don’t blame you for having your own opinion, for investigating, for looking for contradictions. I don’t blame you for your doubts, I don't blame you for voicing them.
But I do blame you for closing your eyes to any sort of evidence that contradicts your theory, for closing your ears to any voice speaking up in defense, and for closing your minds completely to the slightest hint that things might not be like they think they are. I blame you for the way you are dealing with this, for your tone, for that hate you show.
(EDIT: sphinxofthenile posted a reply to my questions, which can be found here. I posted a brief reply to her in that thread, and will not comment on this any further.)
Yes, I am aware of the fact that most likely nothing I say or do will change anything. That you don't care anyway. That I lost much more sleep over this than you ever did.
But honestly, did you really expect me to just stand back and let this happen? Watch a person I love deeply getting hurt by all this (and not only one)?
If you did, you never knew me at all.
As for now, I rest my case with this one conclusion:
(moving on...)