Зачем на самом деле Джон Лилли вкалывал дельфинам ЛСД? Как создаются Мифы о "Mad Scientist".
Интернет пестрит статьями, громко кричащими о том, как Джон Лилли давал дельфинам ЛСД лишь с целью их «разговорить». Простебы доходят до полного кича, как например от Дункана Трассела:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ruBotHWUs
John C. Lilly: The Mad Scientist Who Gave LSD To Dolphins
Scientists once gave dolphins LSD in attempt to...
В 60-х года НАСА провели эксперимент, в результате...
и так далее...
Но реальная история с ЛСД и Дельфинами гораздо глубже, и может кому-то показаться даже скучной...
В 1967 году в сборнике материалов конференции 1965 года «The Use of LSD in Psychotherapy and Alcoholism» была опубликована статья-стенограмма выступления/дискуссии Джона Лилли «Dolphin-Human Relation and LSD 25»
In May 1965, Dr. Harold A. Abramson called together at South Oaks Hospital, Amityville, N.Y., fifty doctors, scientists, and psychiatrists from all over the Western world (and from behind the Iron Curtain) to deliver papers on their work with this remarkable drug.
Included in the book are discussions of the thirty-six papers by the participants in the conference. Their questionings, agreements, and disputes lead inevitably to controversy, but it is an unmistakably productive one.
https://archive.org/search?query=The+Use+of+LSD+in+Psychotherapy+and+Alcoholism
Также в другой, уже полностью выпущенной им книге «Communication Between Man and Dolphin. The Possibilities of Talking with Other Species» (1978) в конце, в Аннотированной Библиографии есть краткий конспект этой статьи с выделением основных открытий:
Первоначальная идея, стоящая за желанием проверить на дельфинах действие ЛСД - узнать, подавит ли он их «волевое» дыхание. Как известно, дельфины не дышат непроизвольно и поэтому в случаях кризиса как физического так и психологического способны покончить с собой просто перестав дышать. (см.далее аудио, где Лилли приводит примеры)
The original hypothesis behind this work was based upon the voluntary nature of respiration in the dolphin. Anything that would modify a central nervous system activity as radically as LSD-25 does would interfere with respiration in the dolphin. The dolphin might stop breathing under the influence of LSD. The experiments were done with a standby respirator in case this effect took place.
Эксперименты проводились в 1964-1966 годах, то есть когда ЛСД был еще легален и Лилли получил официальное разрешение на проведение эксперимента. На случай лсд-«блокировки» дыхания дельфинов были заготовлены специальные респираторы.
На удивление, ЛСД вызвал стимулирование дыхания.
The effect of LSD was the opposite of that expected and the opposite of the effect of barbiturates; there was an acceleration of respiration (barbiturates at 10 mg per kg of body weight knocked out respiration completely necessitating the use of the respirator).
"With 100 micrograms of LSD-25 injected intramuscularly into a 400-lb. animal there was about a 50% increase in the respiratory rate and then a four times increase in the rate at the peak of the LSD-25 effect. At the same time the heart rate went up 20%.
На Архив-Орге есть интересная запись радиопрограммы 1976 года с интервью Джона и Антонины Лилли на тему налаживания общения с отличными от человека существами:
«Communication with other than man / John and Antonia Lilly ; interviewed by Linda Perry. 1976»
https://archive.org/details/pacifica_radio_archives-BC3082
После небольших «танцев с бубнами» можно вытащить mp3 этой «only streaming» записи.
The lecture features a live dolphin with whom the Lillys demonstrate some of their theories about animal consciousness. The Lillys were recorded at Entayant in New York City by Bill Kortum. Produced by Linda Perry for WBAI with assistance from Billy Shapiro. Technical production by David Rapkin.Appears to be the same recording as BC3077.
На 38й минуте начинается часть про ЛСД и Дельфинов
Лилли рассказывает, как можно по внешним признакам было определить, что ЛСД начал действовать в дельфине - он неожиданно направил свой радиолокатор вниз, чтобы проверить расстояние до дна. Джон отмечает, что те, кто испытывал на себе воздействие ЛСД наверняка сталкивались с эффектом «исчезновения» восприятия пола и, чтобы убедиться, что глаза обманывают - часто просто стучали ногой об пол, вот то же самое произошло и с дельфином:
You can tell right away that he has LSD in him. You know how?
Those of you who've had psychedelics should be able to tell instantly.
Let me give you the background. A dolphin does not believe what his eyes say. He believes where the echoes that he gets back with his sonar. As he swims along the surface, he suddenly does something he never does when he doesn't have LSD. He suddenly points his beak straight down at the bottom and turns on his sonar. And then he puts his beak back up and swims along the surface.
And I instantly understood what he was doing.
And I realized that this was... That what was happening was that his vision, where he could look at the bottom, this is the same thing happened to his vision that happens to the human vision, with that dose of Sandoz. This was a hundred and two hundred micrograms, but it's pure Sandoz. Very different. And given intramuscular. Okay.
What's happened is that the bottom of the pool is disappeared for his visual field. So he turns on his sonar and gets a reflection of the bottom. And he says, okay, this is happening inside of him. Just like a person who's on acid sees the floor disappear. Because they're walking across the floor, the floor disappears and they stamp their foot. And the floor reappears. It's the same thing.
Далее идет еще одно интересное наблюдение, когда запуганный дельфин, всегда боявшийся людей, которые ранили его гарпунами, под ЛСД вдруг приблизился к Лилли и находился рядом, не сводя с него взгляда, пока эффект не проходил.
(из радиопрограммы) Now we had one dolphin that had been speargunned three times in the Flipper movies by Ivar Torres's people. Who, in the three years that she stayed with us, wouldn't go near any humans.He gave her LSD and she immediately approached us and stayed close to us as long as the LSD effect was taking place and then left us as soon as it wore off.(...) Her fear was abolished by the presence of the LSD.
(из статьи) We have one dolphin that we received two and a half years ago. In this particular instance this dolphin had been shot with a spear gun three times through the tail. We knew this dolphin before; we had helped the owners get a very close relationship with this same dolphin; we knew her behavior before the trauma happened. After it had happened she would not come near human beings at all. In our pool she would stay on the far side away from anybody that was there. If you tried to approach her, she would shoot away from you. She acted like this for two years. We decided to use her as one of our controls, using LSD 25.
As the LSD effect came on, forty minutes after the injection of 100 mcg, the dolphin came over to me. She had not approached me before. She stayed still in the tank with one eye out of water looking me in the eye for ten minutes without moving. This was a completely new behavior.
I moved around to see if there would be any effect from my movements. She followed me right around the edge of the tank. I moved out of the room, and the assistant moved into position. The same behavior continued. It is a very amazing change in behavior. She will now come within five feet of me instead of staying twenty feet away.
У ДЕЛЬФИНОВ НЕ БЫЛО «БЭД» ТРИПОВ
Лилии иронически замечает, что за все время экспериментов у дельфинов не отмечалось негативных эффектов от ЛСД. Только позитив.
So far as we can make out all the dolphins that we ever gave LSD and there were six of them, they all had good trips. Nobody had a bummer from her.From what they could observe? She got in and swam with them when they were under the influence. They were all over you. And they were all over one another.If you gave one dolphin the stuff, there was another one in the tank. That dolphin was all over the other dolphin. - Whether the other one had the LSD or not?- Right. This was all done back in 64 to 66 when it was legal to do all this. And we had full permission to give the dolphin the LSD, so we did it. And then we recorded, very carefully recorded, what was going on.
ЛСД И «ПЕРИОДИЧЕСКИЙ» СОН ДЕЛЬФИНОВ
If you immerse the dolphins in water-that is that they can work fast for about ten to twenty minutes, and you can get a magnificent result. They then want to take a five minute "time-out, " and you must give it to them. If you try to press them through that time, you will get only the response to an irritation. They go away from you, and just swim around and relax. Then they come back and are all ready to go again. This is their sleep time. They sleep five minutes out of, say, half an hour, all day long and all night long, with a slight peak during the night. You see the same thing with LSD. They slow down but they do not sleep.
ПОВЫШЕННАЯ ГОВОРЛИВОСТЬ ДЕЛЬФИНОВ ПОД ЛСД
И в статье, и в этом выступлении Лилли рассказывает известные вещи про повышенную в десятки раз вокализацию дельфинов под ЛСД.
And we developed what's called a vocalization index. And we had ways of measuring and using a computer. So that as the dolphin, say you had a dolphin alone in the tank and you had 24-hour recordings of everything that that dolphin put out. Then you gave them, say, 100 micrograms and you continued your recordings and then measured the vocal output and compared it to the vocal output without the LSD. And it turns out that the duty cycle, the amount of time spent talking, went as high as 90% from a baseline of about 10 years.
So in the presence of acid, they got very, very talkative.
Но это лишь часть исследования и она никак не связана с мифическим желанием «разговорить» дельфинов. А падкие любители дешевых сенсаций, разумеется, вытащили именно этот «элемент», сделав главным...
При общении с дельфинами опирались на три уровня (roots) взаимодействий: словесное (вербальное), вокально-эмоциональное (non verbal) и жестово-физическое (physical contact). Под действием ЛСД «словесное общение» уходило из области понимания и основное место занимали звуко-эмоциональные и физические элементы.
(из статьи) I want to emphasize the roots of psychotherapy. One of the roots is verbal, with meaningful sounds being made and a verbal exchange taking place between the therapist and the patient. The next one is merely vocal. Each makes noises that have no verbal meaning but have meaning on another level. The third one is physical contact. We do not use the verbal level. We do use the vocal level. There is sort of a "nonsense" exchange taking place a good deal of the time when you are with a dolphin. We do use the physical contact. Here is where we do exchange on the non-verbal and non-vocal level. We have developed a "silent" language, half of which the dolphins have taught us.
(...) The important thing for us with the LSD in the dolphin is that what we see has no meaning in the verbal sphere. The meaning resides completely in this non-verbal exchange. This is where our progress has been made in the last three or four years-in developing this other level, because we were forced to. We have had to do it in order to make any Progress on the vocalization and communication. In other words, we accept communication on any level where we can reach it.
На той радио-встрече Лилли и его жена еще много рассказывали интересного на предмет взаимодействия с дельфинами.
Было там и про странное «телепатическое» воздействие, когда людям, в том числе и знакомому Джона Лилли, снились сны с дельфинами, которые затем оказывались правдой.
Но Джон остается на скептической стороне, хотя и замечает, что первые его эксперименты с «камерой депривации» под ЛСД проходили в непосредственной близости от бассейна с дельфинами, и кто знает, возможно они каким-то образом повлияли на него, вызывав интерес продолжать исследования.
ДЕЛЬФИНЫ МОГУТ НАУЧИТЬ КОМПЬЮТЕР, А НЕ НАОБОРОТ
Еще один нюанс попыток налаживания контакта с дельфинами заключался в стимулировании у них обратной связи - в обучении компьютера и человека, а не наоборот.
То есть, идея заключалась не просто в желании научить дельфина произносить английские слова, а выработать новый язык, привлекая самих дельфинов к участию в его создании!
Но, как отмечает Джон Лилли, мозг у дельфинов настолько развит, и у них настолько несравнимо глубокая «звуковая» память (чему приводятся в интервью примеры), что если они бы успешно обучили компьютерную программу, то люди бы вряд ли поняли что происходит.
Лилли на эту тему приводил несколько примеров такой «обратной» связи, когда дельфины вместо того чтобы выполнять скучные задания начинали импровизировать и менять правила на лету, в том числе и во время экспериментов с повторением «звуковых» фраз. Но практически всегда людям было невозможно понять, чему их хотят научить дельфины...
Обо всем этом Лилли подробно описывает в своих книгах:
см. сборник нескольких книг «Lilly on Dolphins. Humans of the Sea» (1975).
This book is a combination and republication of three books and two scientific papaers. The books are: Man and Dolphin, The Dolphin in History, and The Mind of the Dolphin. The scientific papers are: "Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence" and Reprogramming of the Soic Output of the Dolphin: Sonic Burst Count Matching."
Все книги в раздаче:
John Cunningham Lilly / Джон Каннингем Лилли - Собрание книг (23 книги) [1961-2003, FB2/EPUB/DOCX/PDF/DjVu, ENG/RUS]
И СНОВА ВОПРОС, ЗАЧЕМ ЖЕ ЛИЛЛИ ВКАЛЫВАЛ ДЕЛЬФИНАМ ЛСД?
- Why LSD was given to the dolphins?
- We had discovered years ago in 1954 that the respiratory system is totally voluntary. And we suspected that if we disturbed the cortical function and the thinking process is too much, that the respiration would fail. So we tried LSD to test this hypothesis.
And it turned out that LSD did not muck up the system at all. They kept on breathing. We didn't need the respirator we had ready. And so that the voluntariness of their breathing was so deep in the voluntary structure that we couldn't interfere with it.
См. также статью:
«What We've Learned from Giving Dolphins LSD» Communication between humans and animals may be possible after all. March 2, 2017, 8:07pm
https://www.vice.com/en/article/9amw88/what-weve-learned-from-giving-dolphins-lsd
https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/c8th8s31/dsc/