A snippet I would like to share about corsets in 1913 plus questions about bust support.
I was talking about old (edwardian to 1949) books on sewing with TheLongHairedFlapper on her youtube channel, and she recommended some freely downloadable books from archive . com ( Read more... )
Do you mean you prefer a balconette style top as part of your corset, so a corset with actual modern style cups? Or did you buy a wireless balconette bra (-lette) or something similar?
I agree with the opinion that edwardian corsets with their long torso can be uncomfortable. I have a late edwardian corset that makes sitting difficult if there isn't some place I can sit with the right depth and height.
I remember wearing that corset under a modern dress, at a wedding and the only place to sit that was left was a high bar stool. It was not comfortable, and I felt my legs were forced apart.
I made a modern underbust in 2017 but I made it pretty long from waist down to the hip.
I allowed for comfort (sitting down, or doing anything else) by scooping it out where the upper leg meets the torso when you raise your legs (like what happens when you sit or ride a bicycle).
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I ended up ditching my attempts at serious period work when I started doing deeper research into the photography of the area and saw that although Harpers and such were the style setters... most people, were just making what THEY liked, anyways. So... I dumped my attempts to be a hardliner and started boldly jumping into the idea that whatever I felt I looked good in, and had the motifs of the time period.. was PLENTY period.
It gibes with how I dress now. I get lots of positive feedback on my style and fashion sense.. but I am never dressed in the 'in' style. Its all about the fit, color, a flair of individuality and confidence... and it seems that is not a new thing when it comes to the history of wearable fashion. I now do most of my period silhouetting with modern fabrics (stretch!) and undergarments with a mishmash of period-inspired pieces that have a personal twist on them so I can get into-out of them alone. I'm a ragamuffin!
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I don't mind being period-inaccurate, but when I post the outfit always add that it's not period accurate.
Maybe I can get an s bend pattern, do a mock up and see if I can get a cotton sportsbra or other comfortable wireless bra to help me with support (the chemise isn't going to save me), and then see if that with the correct overclothes results in something that looks nice.
I'm trying to avoid the boob shelf effect. I hate the look of that. I don't know if you have seen the photograph of a victorian woman who has two cups and saucers on her boob shelf.
I also saw that effect a lot on fantasy fairs and with larpers.
I enjoy trying to be period accurate but I also enjoy not trying to be period accurate.
For sewing late 30's and 1940's I get my inspiration from photographs rather than catalogs.
I'm much more interested in what real people are wearing vs the illustrations in catalogs.
I don't care about having period accurate underwear as long as the whole outfit looks good.
As for classic lolita that fashion style draws inspiration from a number of fashion eras, and you can just pick and mix elements that you like. You can do it by feel and as long as the end result looks good it's all good.
I liked that freedom and I like having a fashion style where being period accurate is not vital.
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I wear these bras and like the support and shape they give. They are full cup, non-padded underwire bras. https://embraceluxurylingerie.co.uk/shop/hedona-moulded-non-wired-bra-by-chantelle/
My natural breast shape was never round to begin with. Mine are torpedo shaped and sag.
I think if I want to avoid the boob shelf (especially seeing as my natural breasts are torpedo shaped instead of half spheres, they already have more tendency to become a boob shelf) any well fitting bralette or wireless bra will add support and hopefully help avoid the boob shelf.
As long as the bra is made of breathable material it should be fine.
I don't have any breathable wireless bras so I guess I'm going to have to get a pattern for an early edwardian corset first, make a mock up, then see what I need to buy/use for support.
With all the layers over the corset I doubt you would see a difference between using a bralette/sportsbra for support vs the period accurate stuff.
It's the ruffled corset cover that does much of the work getting that pigeon breast look.
I confess I only have two nice bras and I only wear them for formal occasions. For grocery shopping I put on old sports bras (from the brand "shock absorber") that I should have thrown away a long time ago. They are synthetic, don't breathe, give very minimal support because of being so old. I have a newer pair from that same brand but dislike wearing it for how much pressure the underbust band puts on that location.
If I am home on my own I don't wear a bra.
I've gotten very relaxed with my body lately. I haven't worn bras in the home alone for a few years now, but I've also stopped removing my body hair if it wasn't going to be on show.
I mean if I am going to wear nylons of course I am going to remove my leg hair, but if I am just wearing trousers for months on end I stop shaving there. Same for underarms, I haven't worn sleeveless anything in public for some years, yet I kept shaving there. Makes no sense.
So I have adopted the stance that if no one is going to see it I am not going to shave there anymore.
Shaving for ladies, according to some informational video on youtube, came in at around the 1920's/late 1910's. If they were fine being au natural in 1902 for example, it should be fine now.
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And I was like, "WHAT?!?!"
She explained, "In Russia, for men it is hygiene. Men wear heavy clothes and have thick underarm hair.. and if they wear deodorant, if they have thick hair under there.. the deodorant sticks to the hair, and not their skin... so it doesn't work. Men wear heavy layers and work out of doors in the cold... so they get smelly and sweaty.. they shave their underarms so they can use deodorant. Why do WOMEN do it, here? Women have soft underarm hair. There is no problem with deodorant reaching their skin. So... why do women shave their armpits here?"
I explained in America WOMEN shave their underarms and men do not. And she was like: "GROSS!!!!"
And I was like... "I SEE THROUGH THE MATRIX!"
She stopped me from being a shaving devotee at the age of 15 when I realized it was all cultural and all made up.
I own probably... 30 bras... and it is the most luxurious feeling in the WORLD to have a wide choice of bras of different colors, shapes, supports, strap styles, and thicknesses! I wear a bra every day and the only time I don't wear one is to bed. I have long, soft breasts and they hurt *way too much* when they are just allowed to hang around. When I am casual I wear Bralettes from Torrid, (https://www.torrid.com/torrid-curve-intimates/bras/bralettes-bandeaus/) which are just super comfy, but... having huge boobs is just.. a BIG JOB for me. So... I strap them in, haul them up, and try to get on with my day. Being braless is super uncomfortable for me. Always has been.
I do like my own cleavage, and like to show it off... so that is why I like the balconettes and demi-cups, always with an underwire. Full-coverage ones are for keeping the kittens out of the way, and my favorite bras are for letting them out to play. It's like, "I want SOME benefit by having these! At least I can have pretty cleavage!"
I used to get by on having almost-no bras... barely affording the ones I had. Now I just buy every discount bra I find that fits.. and its a huge load off my mind (and back!) to have a wide selection to go with my clothing and to feel comfortable in.
You sound like to TOTALLY know what you are doing while making your corsets and creating your period silhouettes! Great job! Good luck on your mockups!
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It makes sense though.
Meanwhile in europe when a man doesn't shave under his arms it's normal, and when a woman doesn't shave under her arms it's suddenly gross and unhygienic. That makes no sense since men have a stronger body odor, oilier skin, courser thicker hair and usually sweat more.
I have shaved my armpits and private parts for the entirety of my 20's and until I was 34.
I'm not sure what I expected when I stopped doing it earlier this year, as I had forgotten what my body hair looked like without being trimmed/shaved.
I was afraid of growing a wild bush but told myself if it ever bothered me I could always go back to shaving, or buy a trimmer.
But I found it surprisingly difficult to grow much hair. It's all a lot more tidy (and more hygienic) than I thought, as it is soft and straight and not voluminous.
The main reason I stopped shaving was taking back ownership of my body (I know that sounds dramatic), but what I mean with that is that I no longer care about meeting/accommodating to anyone else's gaze.
I am recently single after an 8 year relationship and I wanted to see what my body looked like au natural.
Another reason that made me want to stop shaving was that, over the last couple of years, looking in the mirror at my naked form with shaved private parts started to look wrong.
Perhaps my personal aesthetic preference changed or societies brainwashing (that says women should shave it completely smooth down there) was wearing off.
I think it's the hassle and time that keep me from going bra shopping.
I've had memories of going bra shopping and returning empty handed because nothing fit right.
If I could find something breathable without wires I would probably happily wear it.
But I haven't seen cotton sports bras in ages. I just googled them, they do sell them online but I would want to try it on in a local store first.
Well, I guess that's what I need to do this week.
I'm tired of having the imprint of my underwire (my formal bras) or itchy, hot synthetic bras with little to no support (my sports bras).
I should have gone shopping a long time ago but it seems I had to get there at my own pace.
I've only made one corset so far, that was back in 2017. But I was very pleased with it and it was more flattering and more comfortable than the expensive custom ones I own.
But it was with a lot of help from the community, various articles and books.
It no longer fits me though, I've lost weight and body fat distribution is different now.
As for creating period silhouettes, I don't think I have much experience there either.
For my late 30's-mid 40's clothes they never required me to do something special to achieve the silhouette.
The early edwardian silhouette and how it is achieved is pretty straight forward imo.
Plus there are patterns for the underthings easily available. The corset is the most time consuming and fiddly one, but the chemise, corset cover and padding are easy projects.
I'm working on bloomers now, to use with old school lolita, as a way to get my sewing mojo back. They are inspired by late victorian-early edwardian drawers so I consider that aesthetic overlap.
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I've made... 3? 4? corsets? It feels like plenty. I've never bought expensive custom ones although its always been my drool-tool to imagine. I've bought some cheapy lingerie-store ones that had steel boning and were of a modern style.. but its hard to find nice ones in plus-size that pass muster.
I've always wanted to foray into making a corset out of SPANX material, which I think would be an AMAZING synthesis of both style, fit and comfort to wear as a foundational (and laced) garment, but I haven't the desire to cut up my SPANX nor put my serger to the Ultimate Test.. yet.
You might not have the experience making the silhouettes, but you talk the talk and it sounds like you at least know what's happening! I LOVE my bloomers and I've always told myself I need to make more than the two pair I originally made. I seriously love them and still wear them under my costumes, as well as when I go dancing for a funny surprise under my dresses. They're perfect for the Lolita look, and I think you'll love wearing them! I also like the protecting from chafing. Go super-giant over-undies!
I understand what you are saying about taking control of your body, especially after a long relationship and trying to undo a little social programming. I've always been an on/off shaver... and never done the full bare pubes... I can't IMAGINE the itch of growback! Also.. it creeps me out because the only women with smooth pudendas... are prepubescent girls... and I don't WANT to look like a 12 yr old girl, I'd MUCH rather look like a hairy grown woman. I trim the edges so I can wear a bathing suit or sexy underwear without "planning ahead".. and give a swipe to my underarms or legs whenever I feel *moved* to.
I think I was lucky to grow up with a tomboy mom who was a tougher cowboy than most of the men she hired, and having friends from other cultures who had other ideas about body expectations.. and also lesbian friends who really **wanted** to deprogram other women from male expectations because they felt a lot of freedom *because* they were free of trying to please a male gaze and social convention which give them license to choose their own body image.
It's almost heroic to me to imagine women in their mid-30s who are DISCOVERING their own natural body for the very first time. The idea that you didn't KNOW what your body hair LOOKED like or FELT like.. even though.. it is your body, you had been cultivating/controlling your body hair for so long. Its a really interesting place to be... and experience to have I think.
It sounds like you are simply exploring the idea of what it is like... to be YOU. Solely. Yourself. For the first time... or at least the first time in a long time. That's HARD, but it is also MAGICAL... or at least, *I* think so!
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Thank you again for that.
I made one mock up, did a fitting and did some alterations. But then instead of making an entirely new corset I just finished the edges of the mock up and wore that around the house.
Well, it doesn't fit anymore now. But it was a grand experience.
I would do my next corset a little bit differently, probably influenced by reading Cathy Hay's articles and watching Bernadette Banner make victorian underthings and a corset.
My last corset was long from the waist down but not long from the waist up, it didn't reach to the underbust level. I did that for flexibility of movement.
It didn't really ad any flexibility when laced compared to my other corsets, and it wasn't very attractive to have the slight muffin top in the front and back.
I should have gone for an underbust.
And this corset had two strength layers and a combination of flat steels and spiral steel boning. The corset pattern was made with the duct tape method.
Next time I will just buy an edwardian corset pattern and then try to make it a single layer corset with synthetic baleen (the stuff that is supposed to have the same properties as authentic baleen).
And instead of trying to make that corset fit all of my lumps and bumps I would do what they did back then and pad out where necessary. Otherwise I am probably not going to get the right silhouette.
Wasn't there some good quality stretch material used back in the 50's for foundation garments? Was it called "power net"? Wouldn't that be better than spanx material. I don't know what spanx are made off.
I mean if you have a pair of spanx lying around then I see why you would want to experiment.
I love bloomers too.
About 13 years ago I made a pair of simple bloomers out of some left over soft cotton sheet material. I got the pattern out of a japanese sewing book and scaled the pattern up a few sizes according to the waist size.
I didn't really know about crotch depth and the crotch curve back then, and my scaled pattern ended up being too low in the crotch. But I didn't make a mock up so I walked around with the crotch point 5 cm too low.
These bloomers were made from soft and sturdy stark white cotton, I added lace around the hem and I added horizontal pin tucks as a detail.
I loved them to death, literally. I wore them until a big hole appeared at the inner thighs after the material had run thin.
I plan to make two very simple ones, one in cream and one in black.
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I've been following your discussion, here, with interest.
You've mentioned something, the "duct tape method," which was used for making a corset pattern, with which I'm unfamiliar. Please: what is the duct tape method?
There is indeed a material called "power net," used in foundation garments and also for costumes requiring control while creating the illusion of bare skin. Commonly, you see it in dancers' costumes (such as those worn by ladies in competitive ballroom dancing or other competitive dance forms) and skaters' costumes, particularly ice skaters' costumes. The opaque and often embroidered, be-sequined, or otherwise decorated parts of the outfit appear magically to cling to the performer's skin, hence my reference to costumes requiring control: the power net keeps everything else precisely where it should be, while being inconspicuous to the audience's eyes.
I have seen it offered for sale only in "nude," white, and black.
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Find a t-shirt you don't mind cutting up and grab friend/loved one who you are not embarrassed to see you topless or in a bra/corset. You will also need a roll of duct tape... or packing tape works.. but it has different qualities. Duct tape is more fool-proof, packing tape can be ruined, but is kinder to pins depending on how you are going to use the body form.
Wear a foundational bra and/or corset of the shape that you prefer.
Put on t-shirt.
Wrap yourself in duct tape!
You can do this for your natural form, by not squeezing your body, and allowing your natural form to be covered comfortably. If you want a corseted shape.. a corset underneath works best. BUT you can also do slow-careful wrapping, starting with a waist-tape (stringer around the waist) at your desired measurement.. and then using the pressure of wrapping the tape around you to CREATE that shape in duct tape around you, that works *OK* but a corseted shape to mimic is *best*.
Wrap! Wrap! Wrap! Go down across the tops of your hips.. all the way up to your shoulders! You want a FULL torso! This will be a REAL body form OF YOU.... and can be used for years. Use a few tricks of the sewing trade to uplift breasts (cross-your heart patterning, with tape literally lifting you) or pinching your waist in, or whatever you feel you want.
It is likely you might use most (or all) of your duct tape!
Cut the form up the back or the sides... your preference. Back is better.. because its a single cut and easier to close with more duct-tape.
You can stuff the body form with pillow-stuffing, but I find that if you have a lot of plastic grocery sacks around (they aren't banned here.. so they are easy to get and EVERYONE has tons of them) they work REALLY well as a firm stuffing material.
I will have to check out 'power net'... I've definitely seen the material on skaters/etc... but I figured most of it was actually 4-way stretch mesh (https://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/browse/5) which comes in many colors.... but doesn't have control or hold capabilities. But swimsuit fabric is also a 4-way stretch and DOES have control and also comes in lots of colors... in fact.. maybe that's what I should practice with! (Unless I gave away my swimsuit material going "Oh, I've given up on that!")
GOOD THINKING!
This youtube video compares normal average stretch mesh (which is what I linked to) to power mesh... and I think I want some POWER MESH!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5azSQwNzhi4
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Makes sense, though.
I may have to fall back on my old, direct self-draped muslin or toile or block, or something, and work out my corset patterns that way (along with some measurement-taking, of course.) Er...if I ever again have the time to indulge in corsetmaking. Right now it feels as if I'll never have that much time for indulgence in personal projects ever again.
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It's "or something."
I'm married to my house, which came as a bit of a surprise when I realized it although I ought to have anticipated that things would be this way.
I used to live in a condominium, and of course we "had people" who mopped the tile floor of the lobby, vacuumed the carpets in the resident floor hallways, shoveled the walks and the driveway, mowed the lawn (yes, there was some lawn) and trimmed the ornamental landscaping.
Today I "have people," too, the same way Pope John XXIII said he'd awaken in the middle of the night and say, "I must tell the Pope about that---" and then realized that he was now the Pope! All "my people" can be found in just one body (mine), depending on what has to be done and therefore which activity hat I'm wearing: home vegetable gardener, landscaper or yard worker (mowing, weeding, pruning), maid, cook, kitty caretaker, floor mopper and polisher, woodwork waxer, bathroom and kitchen scourer, and so on. All the stuff most of us do to one degree or another.
Biggest current project is painting ALL of the exterior, and it is time consuming. Can't paint in the rain or if the surface area is wet, so when the weather's right I dash to do what I can as fast as I can, but I also have to make sure the crabgrass in the veggie garden doesn't get too far ahead of me.
Can't complain too much, too loudly or too long: I wanted the house, and bought it. The work is part of the deal.
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We bought our house in October and I'm like,...
NAH! IT CAN WAIT!!
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By now (12 years of ownership) it has been close to 22 years since the house was painted, so that needs to be refreshed. We take a LOT of pride in the appearance of our city, a first-ring suburb, and if we don't, the city itself will motivate us to get off our duffs and 'git t' gittin'."
So, I'm busy. Always. Busy.
There's another project than just home maintenance and yard work, though, but that's a long, long story and actually one I'm not disposed to "publish," at least not yet.
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