I actually didn't really mind Liza. I think they were looking for a way to tell US, what he is looking like inside. And who should he have gone to? There are not a lot of people who he could have gone to. And I think they wanted to tell us that he is preparing himself for his "end". And Liza was what he missed in life - a perfectly normal life. So maybe this was the reason he went to her? (And I'm still sure Ben is his son. No matter what Liza and the authors try to tell us. So it kinda made sense.)
I agree completely. I'm sick up to my eyeballs of people wanting to bitch about Dean's behavior. There's not anyone left close to him that he completely trusts or hasn't abandoned him. Lisa's the one person girl who found out what he does and didn't throw him out on his ear or try to shoo him away. I don't get how everyone was able to sympathize with Sam last season but don't understand Dean's actions. It's really starting to ruin the show for me.
I hope you don't mind me answering. He could have gone to them. But I think they are to involved. They know what he wants to do. And he knows they would try to talk him out of it. So I really get why he couldn't go to them. He needed someone who knew what he does, but doesn't know what he is about to do right now. So Liza was (almost?) the only left. She knows he is hunting strange things out there - and I'm sure he thinks of Ben as his son. So it really made sense for him to go to her. At least to me.
I never said he trusted her. I said she never told him he had to be anyone different than who he is. As far as I can tell, she's the only one who ever did that. Maybe what he needs is to be someone's 'type' for awhile instead of the guy who's forced to play into everyone else's visions of what he should be.
And I don't usually reply to anonymous comments. I'm hoping you're someone I know who just is having a bad time with LJ today.
Funny enough I always thought of me as a Sam-girl. I did understand what he (Sam) did last season. But I also get Dean right now. He lost what kept him going until now - his hope. And he is totally despaired right now. He thinks just he himself is left to do what's needed to be done. Really, watch 5.16 and 5.17 back to back. And everything starts to make sense! Him throwing away the amulet and acting like he does right now.
Y'know, in this case, as I think with most cases involving fandom, it's not about being a Dean girl or a Sam girl. It's about being human and having a little empathy. I always considered myself a Dean girl. Would never lie about it, but I've always been able to see Sam's side of things and felt for him, too. Which is why I really find all the anger is misplaced and, frankly, infuriating at this point because it seems so hypocritical to try to empathize with one but not the other. I agree that it makes total sense. I won't even say I was surprised. When he tossed the amulet, I really didn't see how that episode, given all the lead up, could've gone any other way. And while I didn't see Lisa coming at me in neon lights, that scene didn't seem random at all, considering all the mentions lately of family, love, and in this episode, weddings. Specifically the weddings was a pretty big clue, how people look for stability when things are really starting to fall apart. If they were going to go that route, I don't think they had too many go to
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You know - I think right now Dean lost all hope for himself. And of course this makes him miss a normal life even more. He used to say he doesn't want something like a family of his own. And yet he was the one whoes memories in heaven all evolved around his family (well, his brother and his mother). Sam used to believe in wanted to have a normal life. And look at his memories. I think somewhere deep down Lisa used to be his little part of normal life - even though he never really "had" her and Ben in his life. And I think the visit was more about Ben than about Lisa. I think in his eyes she is the mother of Ben and special because of that. But I'm not so sure he would have gone to here without Ben.
I agree, I think, that he went to Lisa because of Ben. I'm not entirely sure that he's convinced that's his kid, but it doesn't even matter. Ben was so MUCH like Dean, that whether it's his kid or not, Dean would totally see taking the kid as almost giving himself a second chance. If he can save that kid from ending up where he's at and get that kid a safe place to live in where there are no monsters and no hunting and a mother who loves him, then it's worth it. I think Ben's the symbol of all of Dean's lost potential and ambition. So, even if Dean does what he's planning and never comes back from it, there will still be someone able to realize the things he never got to.
Not to say that I would hate if it turned out he was Dean's kid, just not sure they have to go that far to make the point they're trying to make.
Personally, yes,I did feel sympathy for Sam last season. I even made a few posts to that extent. Yes, I saw the hate, but I also saw Dean hate, so it all comes down to where you frequent, I suppose.
The question is, did you feel sympathy for Sam last season, and if so, do you feel that same sympathy for Dean or do you think Dean needs his ass kicked based? For me, one does not follow the other.
I'm getting the feeling around fandom that people are mostly pissed based on some mental scorecard they're keeping and not based on the actual merits of the actions. As if Dean got some unfair proportion of love somewhere down the line that now has to be forcibly revoked. Just to clarify, that's not what I'm seeing in this particular post, which is pretty civil, knowing the poster's personal bias. If it wasn't, I wouldn't even have bothered to comment, because there's just no reasoning with most of fandom at this point.
Actually I didn't like when Sam left last season, neither did Dean. And that is exactly why I don't like what he did now since he know what it feels like. He could have told Sam that he wanted to see Lisa but that he had to do it alone. At least Sam wouldn't be worried then.
I don't get how everyone was able to sympathize with Sam last season Actually I remember that there was a lot of Sam hate back then!!!
Yes, there was a lot of Sam hate back then, but for the most part, it seems to me that the people who are hardest on Dean now are the ones who went out of their way to sympathize with Sam when he did pretty much the same things.
I also think that, knowing how a character's actions might be misconstrued, we go into defensive mode and start to see the hate because we're looking for it.
I also didn't like Sam's actions last season, but I understood why he did it.
Also, there's no way, if Dean told Sam what he was up to, that Sam would let him go. He was watching Dean like a hawk already. And somehow I don't think in any of those memories of Dean's where he felt abandoned, that the people who left sat him down and explained to him exactly what they were thinking and feeling or he wouldn't be as messed up as he is. He did the only thing he could do, in his mind. While he still has the choice, he feels like he has to take it and won't let anyone stop him. I get that.
sorry for butting in ;-) but just couldn't leave besn_143snApril 11 2010, 08:55:02 UTC
I sympathized with Sam last season, and I sympathize with Dean now....BUT I kinda do object to the part where you imply that everyone sympathized with Sam last season. As you said you are more of a self-proclaimed Dean!girl, so it might have slipped past your notice, but there was A LOT OF Sam hate last season, and even this season
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Re: sorry for butting in ;-) but just couldn't leave bealbeitslowlyApril 11 2010, 13:15:47 UTC
No problem. I actually think we're both on the same wavelength as I should've chosen my words differently. I didn't mean to imply that everyone sympathized with Sam last season. I did see the hate and the bashing, and it was especially sad to see some of it from his fans. What I meant to say, I think, is that it seems like those who did sympathize with Sam last season, or at least came to his defense, don't seem willing to give Dean the same consideration. Fandom seems to like tit for tat instead of seeing that tat was probably so far off base it should never have been addressed at all. If that makes sense
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And I think they wanted to tell us that he is preparing himself for his "end". And Liza was what he missed in life - a perfectly normal life. So maybe this was the reason he went to her? (And I'm still sure Ben is his son. No matter what Liza and the authors try to tell us. So it kinda made sense.)
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He could have gone to them. But I think they are to involved. They know what he wants to do. And he knows they would try to talk him out of it. So I really get why he couldn't go to them. He needed someone who knew what he does, but doesn't know what he is about to do right now. So Liza was (almost?) the only left. She knows he is hunting strange things out there - and I'm sure he thinks of Ben as his son. So it really made sense for him to go to her. At least to me.
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And I don't usually reply to anonymous comments. I'm hoping you're someone I know who just is having a bad time with LJ today.
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Really, watch 5.16 and 5.17 back to back. And everything starts to make sense! Him throwing away the amulet and acting like he does right now.
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I think somewhere deep down Lisa used to be his little part of normal life - even though he never really "had" her and Ben in his life. And I think the visit was more about Ben than about Lisa. I think in his eyes she is the mother of Ben and special because of that. But I'm not so sure he would have gone to here without Ben.
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Not to say that I would hate if it turned out he was Dean's kid, just not sure they have to go that far to make the point they're trying to make.
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The question is, did you feel sympathy for Sam last season, and if so, do you feel that same sympathy for Dean or do you think Dean needs his ass kicked based? For me, one does not follow the other.
I'm getting the feeling around fandom that people are mostly pissed based on some mental scorecard they're keeping and not based on the actual merits of the actions. As if Dean got some unfair proportion of love somewhere down the line that now has to be forcibly revoked. Just to clarify, that's not what I'm seeing in this particular post, which is pretty civil, knowing the poster's personal bias. If it wasn't, I wouldn't even have bothered to comment, because there's just no reasoning with most of fandom at this point.
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I don't get how everyone was able to sympathize with Sam last season
Actually I remember that there was a lot of Sam hate back then!!!
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I also think that, knowing how a character's actions might be misconstrued, we go into defensive mode and start to see the hate because we're looking for it.
I also didn't like Sam's actions last season, but I understood why he did it.
Also, there's no way, if Dean told Sam what he was up to, that Sam would let him go. He was watching Dean like a hawk already. And somehow I don't think in any of those memories of Dean's where he felt abandoned, that the people who left sat him down and explained to him exactly what they were thinking and feeling or he wouldn't be as messed up as he is. He did the only thing he could do, in his mind. While he still has the choice, he feels like he has to take it and won't let anyone stop him. I get that.
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As you said you are more of a self-proclaimed Dean!girl, so it might have slipped past your notice, but there was A LOT OF Sam hate last season, and even this season ( ... )
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